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Old 27th June 2010, 22:25   #721
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
@Raj :
About 4X4 for 14 lakh that is with ABS and dual airbag ( EX is 11L) and a similar Scorpio ( with AT) is 14.5 IMHO with extramly poor support and reliability ( as per the problem report of Scorpio AT) so it is still the only option or VFM till somone launches a 4x4 comfortable railroader at lower price point
why compare a scorpio automatic with a manual safari man?

if you consider ex-showroom prices, a top end scorpio manual 4WD with airbags cost 10,48,000 & a top end safari manual 4WD with airbags cost 12,50,000. thats a difference of 2 lakhs. even scorpio 4WD AT with airbags cost 11,43,400 & not 14.5 lakhs (tax, insurance & RTO wont amount to 3 lakhs over ex-showroom prices)!!! so scorpio 4WD AT is cheaper than safari 4WD manual. hence my comment that safari is not VFM.

sources:
::::: MAHINDRA SCORPIO :::::
Tata Safari

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I do not think others give a sterling example of reliability I would prefer a door rattle or some hose clip coming off any day over leak in gearbox or break failure.
neither tata nor mahindra is the epitome of reliability. if you need ultimate reliability, no better than toyota, you would agree. but chances of issues in a mahindra is much lesser than a tata. that is purely based on my experiences. also, you cannot compare regular issues with one off cases.

anyways, lets end this debate & talk about the aria before the mods intervene!

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Originally Posted by rrsteer View Post
By that logic what use is a Safari or any other SUV in the 10 lac bracket. Most owners dont take them offroading.

Separately, I agree that positioning Aria against Fortuner is foolish. I can imagine only a minuscule amount of consumers wanting to compare Aria and Fortuner together.

Also strictly my opinion, no matter my history of associated with reliable tata products for the last decade, I will not put my money on a Tata product costing in the range of 12 to 15 lacs.
some may still consider a 10L SUV for off roading but a 22 lakh one??? i wont! infact i wont even dare to take a scorpio or safari off road.

since you have had a good experience with tatas, any reason why you wont buy their 15 lakh vehicle? the image or brand value?

Last edited by raj_5004 : 27th June 2010 at 22:29.
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Old 27th June 2010, 23:54   #722
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
why compare a scorpio automatic with a manual safari man?

if you consider ex-showroom prices, a top end scorpio manual 4WD with airbags cost 10,48,000 & a top end safari manual 4WD with airbags cost 12,50,000. thats a difference of 2 lakhs. even scorpio 4WD AT with airbags cost 11,43,400 & not 14.5 lakhs
I was not aware that manual 4WD Scorpio mHwack is available.

Any way about ARIA , TML can compare and benchmark against any vehicle it is their prerogative, I won't say it is foolish else they can never climb up the ladder. Customer will not hold them is same league until they have same brand value . TML also know it fully that is why they price it so low then nearest rival with similar feature set else who does not want few lakh extra profit.
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Old 28th June 2010, 00:16   #723
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Guys,

Let us give sometime to Indian Manufacturers to be in the lines of Japanese and other foreign companies. These companies have a experience of 20-40 years minimum in producing 'Luxury Class' passenger vehicles. They have reached such a reliable stage because in foreign countries the customer is more towards safety, comfort and reliability of vehicle. Rather than cost they focus on other aspects. The Indian manufacturers right from their beginning have tried to win the hearts of Indians by producing 'low cost more valuables' and the mighty TATA's and MAHINDRA's which are being compared here with Japanese companies, when we put light on the history of Indian companies they are hardly in the production of passenger cars from last 10 years.(I am talking about a hard focus on producing only passenger cars) While the Honda has more than 20 years of experience and Toyota in the same category. If we are comparing a 10 year old child with a 30 year old guy in capabilities, then you will find it that a 30 year old guy wins effortlessely. Same goes with these companies.

The thread has gone a total wrong way. Please let us stop these offtopic here only. And not debate on quality of Indian and Foreigners, as there is no end to this debate.

Last edited by mercedised : 28th June 2010 at 00:17.
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Old 28th June 2010, 08:25   #724
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The Safari takes 5 people in first Class Jet liner Comfort + 2 in Bull Cart comfort
The Scorpio/ Xylo takes 7 people in Economy class comfort.
The Innova takes 5 people in Business Class and 2 in economy class comfort.
The Fortuner takes 5 pople in almost Business Class and 2 in almost economy class comfort - but does a better job than the endy.
The Aria will be aiming for 5 people in First Class comfor and 2 in economy class comfort.
Now keeping reliability appart, all are positioned quite differently so there should not really be a fight.

We rarely buy a vehicle that exactly meets our need, mostly we make compromises either due to funds or the fact that the right kind of vehicle just does not exist in the comparable price range. (for example an auto in the fortuner range of hard roaders with the reliability and looks of the Toyota.)

Its about make the best compromise, Aria may have a good shot in letting many people in the budget range of 10-20L make the right choice in terms of ticking the max no of boxes.
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Old 28th June 2010, 09:01   #725
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i totally agree with mercedised.

it always we indians who have downgraded indian products. from phones to DVD players to cars, we always want a "phoren" brand. if it all we buy an indian brand, then it should cost half of its japanese/chinese counterpart.

as many have said before in this thread, they will readily buy a 22L fortuner but will never think about a 15L tata. We force the manufacturers to cut costs first & then we degrade their products & stop them from growing. sad indeed.

as far as i am concerned, if tata gets its issues sorted out & promises me a reliable aria, i would be more than happy to buy the aria instead of the fortuner. in fact, i am desperately waiting for the mahindra world SUV (W201).
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Old 28th June 2010, 09:46   #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
it always we indians who have downgraded indian products. from phones to DVD players to cars, we always want a "phoren" brand. if it all we buy an indian brand, then it should cost half of its japanese/chinese counterpart.
as many have said before in this thread, they will readily buy a 22L fortuner but will never think about a 15L tata. We force the manufacturers to cut costs first & then we degrade their products & stop them from growing. sad indeed.
You are absolutely right. If I may, I'd like to add a little bit of a different perspective here, at the risk of going off-track.

We as a country are poor. Till a few years back, we didn't have access to products and creature comforts that the people in the west were used to for decades. I remember my mother being thrilled at being gifted a hair drier (this is a long time back though). Our economy was protected and we had access to goods usually locally manufactured with lower quality levels not only because of the lack of competition, but also due to low purchasing power. People having foreign brands (of appliances/cars/shoes anything) were seen to be elite.

It is a legacy of those times that has made us financially more conservative than the west. We cannot afford to take risks with one of the most important purchases of our life (I guess the car comes right after a home/house) and although the purchasing power of an average Indian has gone up, cars are still a luxury. A person prefers spending 22lakhs on a Fortuner because it gives him more peace of mind than spending 15lakhs on a Tata or a Mahindra, and also because it signals to the rest of the world as having arrived.

Does that mean that Tata and Mahindra should continue to make low cost cars with shoddy quality? The answer is a resounding no; any car manufacturer worth it's salt should look at the long term picture. It is important to bite the bullet, launch an expensive, yet very high quality product that might not sell in droves, but it changes customer perception.
The manufacturer should be prepared for the product to not do too well and just build on it, so that once the next version comes out, it'll be harder to ignore.

A case in point is the Hyundai Sonata, the one currently being sold in North America. It is fast being compared to be better than the current model Camry, of course, it's a couple of thousand dollars less than the Toyota, but it's not selling purely because of it's pricing. It has taken Hyundai 4 (or is it more?) model releases to reach this stage.

We Indian's are very good at recognizing value, I am hoping that a high quality Tata (or Mahindra) vehicle will start competing in more than just the price. Hopefully the Aria will kickstart this move up the quality stakes.
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Old 28th June 2010, 10:07   #727
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
@anshuman : Thousands in waiting for fortuner is little bit of far fetched , Yes there is a demand. but then if brand value and reliability was there they would have priced it at 24 Lakhs and that exactly is the point.
Toyota current sells close 900 Fortuners every month and they have a backlog of atleast 6 months, So there are actually thousands of people waiting.

The Current premium is 1 lac rupees for being a second owner and 2 lac rupees for being a first owner. I arranged a Fortuner for my relative recently so i know the confirmed prices. I also own a Fortuner.

Do you mean to say Toyota does not have brand value and reliability? Check out what happens when Toyota will launch Altis Diesel next month.

Last edited by .anshuman : 28th June 2010 at 10:11. Reason: forgot a point
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Old 28th June 2010, 10:10   #728
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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
Toyota current sells close 900 Fortuners every month and they have a backlog of atleast 6 months, So there are actually thousands of people waiting.

The Current premium is 1 lac rupees for being a second owner and 2 lac rupees for being a first owner. I arranged a Fortuner for my relative recently so i know the confirmed prices. I also own a Fortuner.
OK that comment on not pricing at 24 due to lack of brand value was for ARIA and not fortuner

Last edited by amitk26 : 28th June 2010 at 10:11.
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Old 28th June 2010, 11:06   #729
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Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Heh, have you seen the cars that Toyota used to make in the 80s and 90s. They have improved leaps and bounds in the last two decades. But hopefully TATA does not have to spend that long to make good cars. Even a stupid man will not repeat his mistakes(I am sure you definitely would not make the same mistake twice). I assume TATA would have learn't their lessons from Grande and ARIA should be definitely better for about double the price of Grande
I never said, they wont improve. TATA has come a long way from the early Seirra and Estate times. But there cars still lack the fit. That was the only point. Their cars are value for money, cheaper to operate and offer awsome ride quality, that alone will make them sell.
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Old 28th June 2010, 11:42   #730
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Default Great road presence

Saw a red aira at a signal today. Looked good and had a great road presence. Sorry no pics (will try to get pics as I may get to see them again).
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Old 28th June 2010, 15:43   #731
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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post

since you have had a good experience with tatas, any reason why you wont buy their 15 lakh vehicle? the image or brand value?
Well, 15 lakhs is quite a lot of money. With that kind of money I'd like to believe that the product I buy is truly world class in every aspect. With that kind of investment I will have zero tolerance for a plastic panel falling off my car (like it does in my 1.5 year old Safari) or that I'd be required to change the radiator of my less than a year old car like it happened in my Scorpio.

Yes both vehicles are performing very well and they never have left me stranded and I feel they are money's worth. But then when we bought them we had the bargain pictured in the back of our mind. The bargain being, can expect the vehicle to be plagued with some issues at sometimes.

Yes, I too want to fly the flag of Indian engineering, but too a point. If tomorrow its proven Tata Aria is as reliable and as conditions-proof as an Innova, I'll prefer it over others, even if Tata brand were still to be equated to a cab or a truck maker.
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Old 28th June 2010, 16:08   #732
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^^ Would you pick an Aria over Fortuner?
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Old 28th June 2010, 16:36   #733
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I know that question is meant for rr steer but If money is a constraint and I want something worth my while I would choose an Aria over the Fortuner. Why?? I wouldnt pay a premium of 7 Lakhs just for reliability. Also even Toyota has seen quite a few recalls nowadays so has Honda and other brands which are known for their reliability. Not to undermine them , but when we say TATA cars are not reliable it doesent mean they just stop in the middle of the road. They have some issues with the electricals and finish but thats that. Even european cars are not known to be reliable ofcourse not in the same breath as a TATA cars but nonetheless they are known not to be reliable but Mercs,Beemers and Audis have their position carved out irrespective of the issues they might have.

A close family friend has been buyin skoda cars since the time they were launched, irrespective of the issues which skoda is known for and he is happy with the car. The point being a Toyota loyalist will go for a Toyota no matter how the car is. but a person without any such bias, when wants to invest 15L in a car might very well choose an ARIA, where Toyota has reliabilty as its USP TATA has space/comfort and now with ARIA it also has safety as its USP, its all about requirements of an individual.
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Old 28th June 2010, 16:38   #734
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Don't know about others, but am prepared to put my cash on the Aria, Maybe I would actually pick the Aria over the Fortuner

Reasons:
1) Neither have an Auto which i would love in my SUV.
2) The Fully Loaded Aria would be about 5-6L cheaper than the sole Fortuner model.
3) Aria is most likely to be more comfortable than the Fortuner (just as the innova is) but yet likely to be reasonably Macho (which dual exhaust - high bonnet - 140 bhp and 4X4 drive)
4) LR like Interior theme
5) Indian Brand.
6) 4 year warranty.
7) Feature rich.
8) Available off the shelf ( more or less) unlike the Fortuner.
9) Likely to have a better sounding door shut thud.

Now the fortuner should have take an unassilable lead by introducing the Auto version with upto 75K higher cost. In the meanwhile to me the Aria looks like a Larger VFM Diesel CRV / Captiva on a rugged ladder Chassis.

Last edited by ACM : 28th June 2010 at 16:40.
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Old 28th June 2010, 17:07   #735
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Great reading stuff , something is brewing at the Aria page! Innova, Fortuner, Scorpio AT, Safari being compared with. I paid 12.57 for Scorpio VLX 4X4 AT , with airbags. Very VFM IMHO.

Few weeks back, while coming from Delhi, had a company of a Fortuner from Ajmer to Udaipur at night on the NH8 while I was in Scorpio. Must say, it paces well initially and takes a reasonabe lead before, it kind of got stalled / needle stuck around 150+ ( could be driver's self imposed speed limit) while I always managed to catch up. May be sometimes due to a truck in front, sometimes a toll gate, sometimes -town ahead warning etc. However, I also managed to overtake many a times. Both showed respect for each others right to way as I also gave him way many a times when he used to flash beams from behind while I was ahead. In the end, he seemed to have stopped soemwhere to take rest while I managed to drive till Ahmedabad non-stop.

In the end, I was feeling happy with my Scorpio. It manages to reach me home in the same time, at good speed, good comfort and at a lower price tag and almost similar running cost ( FE).

Lets see how Aria fares.
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