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Old 18th January 2010, 14:32   #31
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This switch is only to be expected. Suzuki were never comfortable with the FIAT deal but went along due to the market needs. No I think they will be happier with a VW diesel. I guess most of the machinery can be easily modified for the VW range.
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Old 18th January 2010, 15:00   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Suzuki had deal with Fiat for three engines, 1.3,1.6 and 1.9.

Fiat did not do tech transfer and for EU markets as well as Asian markets...
Do you have any proof for the above allegation? Any reference on the internet?
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Old 18th January 2010, 17:44   #33
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Originally Posted by msharma_79 View Post
Interestingly I was told by suzuki rep. at expo that they are having trouble with fiat and are going to enter into a JV with GM who also owns the MJD Globally for their swift.
interesting and confusing. yesterday i read that Suzuki is going to break up its tie with GM which was setup for engine development. IIRC MJD was developed as JV between FIAT, GM and Suzuki?

I have driven Fabia diesel, i must admit that its very very noisy from outside. even when i sat inside, the engine noise was irritating!

for a common man, its Swift diesel but not Swift MJD or a VW engine. But question is, will the new VW engine be as reliable and trouble free as MJD?

If not reliable, with competition hotting up, it will be major dent for MSIL.

IMHO, if not Suzuki, atleast MSIL should have current national engine MJD in their small diesel cars!
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Old 18th January 2010, 23:25   #34
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I think the switch to VW group (VW/Audi/Skoda...) diesels will be inevitable. VW is by far the largest diesel manufacturer in the world. Don't judge its diesel performance by what we see in the Fabia. Its new range of CR engines are much quieter. The key differentiator is that they have a much wider performance band than most of their competitors (BMW's high end twin turbos excluded).

In the US, around 1 in 4 cars it sold in 2009 were diesels, despite diesels being restricted to two models - the high volume Jetta and the very low volume Toureg. In the US Diesel is also typically more expensive that low and mid grades of petrol.

It is like stating the obvious, but the eventual commonalization of components and engines with Maruti will allow VW to offer its higher end technology at a lower price point in India, specially in the mid to low end segments.
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Old 19th January 2010, 09:15   #35
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Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
VW diesels are much more fuel efficient and are also cleaner. With the Suzuki prowess of tuning it for us, there will be no slump in Maruti's diesel sales.
How many people bought the Swifts and Dzires for who developed the engine? very few. They don't care. Maruti with a good diesel engine is all they care about.
Absolutely. Most of the people that bought Swift/Dzire diesel don't have a clue that the engine was developed by Fiat.

All they want is a Maruti for peace of mind and Diesel for fuel efficiency, period.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:03   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Do you have any proof for the above allegation? Any reference on the internet?
Read this on TBHP and also on Net. Googling helps, but you will have to refine search.
ACI also mentioned many times about this deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by recshenoy View Post
interesting and confusing. yesterday i read that Suzuki is going to break up its tie with GM which was setup for engine development. IIRC MJD was developed as JV between FIAT, GM and Suzuki?

for a common man, its Swift diesel but not Swift MJD or a VW engine. But question is, will the new VW engine be as reliable and trouble free as MJD?

If not reliable, with competition hotting up, it will be major dent for MSIL.

IMHO, if not Suzuki, atleast MSIL should have current national engine MJD in their small diesel cars!
GM and Suzuki had parted ways long back, but that is only on paper. The new R3 concept has close resemblance to an opel van that was recently unvlied in EU. Have a look here : 2011 Opel Meriva AKA Vauxhall Meriva Revealed

And Suzuki supplied Ritz i.e. Splash to be sold as Vauxhaul/Opel Agila. Same was true for Wagon R also. Opel sold more than Wagon R.
So on paper the deal might not be there, but they are working together in one way or other, atleast till now.
To the best of my knowledge, Suzuki paid fees to Fiat for manufacturing the diesel 1.3. So they can put it in any car they want, but only in fixed geometry turbo format. So Suzuki will continue to manufacture SDE for long IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goacom View Post
1) I think the switch to VW group (VW/Audi/Skoda...) diesels will be inevitable. VW is by far the largest diesel manufacturer in the world.

2) Don't judge its diesel performance by what we see in the Fabia. Its new range of CR engines are much quieter. The key differentiator is that they have a much wider performance band than most of their competitors (BMW's high end twin turbos excluded).

3) In the US, around 1 in 4 cars it sold in 2009 were diesels, despite diesels ...

4) It is like stating the obvious, but the eventual commonalization of components and engines with Maruti will allow VW to offer its higher end technology at a lower price point in India, specially in the mid to low end segments.
1) Was it not Peugeot ? May be volumes of VW have grown high. But this does not mean they have great diesels, specially small diesels. Below 2.0 ltr, they dont have good diesels. Here is where Peugeot, Renault and Fiat are ahead.

2) In what price range they are offering CR engines ? Its not available in Jetta. The range of CR engines start from Passat. If they had a motor as good as or better than Fiat SDE, then it would have debuted in Polo. Fact is, VW is not having a nice small diesel. Where as Fiat is reportedly developing a smaller diesel engine than current 1248cc.

3) US and India are different markets, and again, we love small capacity engines and we love small cars.

4) Are you sure on this ? I am not. Depends on how fast tech transfer is done and also the new engines/technology has to prove itself in India.
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Old 19th January 2010, 11:20   #37
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VW TDI engines are by far the most reliable and long lasting diesel engines for last 20 years. Reliability of the same is unquestionable. You may see quite a few forums talk highly of these engines.

TDI CR starts from 1.6L engines and they are fitted in Polo too in the European market.

Indian Polo will have a 1.2L, 3 Cylinder diesel TDI-CR which will be derived out of 1.6L 4 Cylinder TDI-CR.
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Old 19th January 2010, 21:30   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

1) Was it not Peugeot ? May be volumes of VW have grown high. But this does not mean they have great diesels, specially small diesels. Below 2.0 ltr, they dont have good diesels. Here is where Peugeot, Renault and Fiat are ahead.
VW group made around 5 million cars in 2009 vs. less than 2 million for Peugeot. Assuming 60% (very optimistic) of Peugot's cars are diesels, it would come to around 1.2million. The diesel share in VW's mix is smaller, I'd guess around 30-40%. Assuming 30%, it still comes to 1.5 million.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
2) In what price range they are offering CR engines ? Its not available in Jetta. The range of CR engines start from Passat. If they had a motor as good as or better than Fiat SDE, then it would have debuted in Polo. Fact is, VW is not having a nice small diesel. Where as Fiat is reportedly developing a smaller diesel engine than current 1248cc.
The Jetta diesel sold in the US uses the same CR engine that the Passat has in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
3) US and India are different markets, and again, we love small capacity engines and we love small cars.
Very true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
4) Are you sure on this ? I am not. Depends on how fast tech transfer is done and also the new engines/technology has to prove itself in India.
That remains to be seen. It looks like they are moving quite fast with the alliance.
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Old 19th January 2010, 22:50   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goacom View Post
VW group made around 5 million cars in 2009 vs. less than 2 million for Peugeot. Assuming 60% (very optimistic) of Peugot's cars are diesels, it would come to around 1.2million. The diesel share in VW's mix is smaller, I'd guess around 30-40%. Assuming 30%, it still comes to 1.5 million.
If I am not wrong Peugot engine is used in Amby also, so let us consider how many other manufacturers source peugot's engine.
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Old 19th January 2010, 23:18   #40
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This doesnot sound a very good news for the customers of Maruti. The kind of excellence our national engine has been giving us, it will ber real hard to match by VW & in this Indian market itdoes not take a lot to come down
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Old 19th January 2010, 23:59   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
Suzuki had deal with Fiat for three engines, 1.3,1.6 and 1.9....
Only Partially correct. Suzuki now only uses 1.3 and 2.0 engines from FIAT.

Suzuki never used Fiat's 1.6, which is a relatively newly developed engine. Also, Suzuki's stopped using Fiat's 1.9 after FIAT introduced 2.0.

Interestingly, Suzuki uses 1.6 in SX4 from Ford/PSA and 1.9 in Grand Vitara from Renault. I have compiled a list based on googling.

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Old 20th January 2010, 03:04   #42
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I thought Suzuki powertrain india ltd had an agreement to source diesel injection systems from Bosch India. I had seen a press release from Jagadish K on this. Interestingly Bosch is upping their indian investment in diesel engine technologies/manufacturing. Below is their press release.
Bosch - Press releases
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Old 20th January 2010, 05:53   #43
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from content from Q&A: Bernd Bohr, Chairman, Bosch Automotive Group

How does Bosch plan to leverage alliances in the auto space, such as the recent one between Volkswagen and Suzuki Motors?


All such alliances are trying to generate synergies which, for them, are synergies in purchasing, so they combine volumes and compare prices. That has an influence on our business and we try and adjust to it. The good thing for us is that we have a global presence. Both Suzuki and Volkswagen are good customers of ours, so if the two go together, we are not left out. That is a strength pure Japanese or pure German suppliers donít have.

readmore 'We are hopeful of large volumes in small cars'
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Old 20th January 2010, 07:53   #44
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Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post

2) In what price range they are offering CR engines ? Its not available in Jetta. The range of CR engines start from Passat. If they had a motor as good as or better than Fiat SDE, then it would have debuted in Polo. Fact is, VW is not having a nice small diesel. Where as Fiat is reportedly developing a smaller diesel engine than current 1248cc.
Even if its not CR their pump duese is no push over. In fact pump duese gives the added control on each cylinder which CR does not offer due to the common rail being used. Thats why VW often enjoy more mileage than even their European counterparts (excluding BMW).

Also, they do have small CR engines!

1.2 TDI 12v BlueMotion75 PS @ 4,000 rpm; 170 newton metres @ 2,000 rpm known for exceptionally low emissions too.

Even the 1.4 TDI pump duese is available till 90 PS and 230 Nm. That should be more than enough to lug not only the Swift but also the Kizashi.

Also, at the end of the day, Suzuki will research all these things much more than us before committing into such alliances!

Last edited by Trapezio : 20th January 2010 at 07:55.
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Old 20th January 2010, 08:53   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
Only Partially correct. Suzuki now only uses 1.3 and 2.0 engines from FIAT.

Suzuki never used Fiat's 1.6, which is a relatively newly developed engine. Also, Suzuki's stopped using Fiat's 1.9 after FIAT introduced 2.0.

Interestingly, Suzuki uses 1.6 in SX4 from Ford/PSA and 1.9 in Grand Vitara from Renault. I have compiled a list based on googling.
Yes, that 1.6 is from Peugeot. Peugeot managed to extract upto 110 bhp from that mill.
Suzuki and Fiat had much deeper deal than what we think and 1.6 was a part of it. That is why so much speculation was there about 1.6 diesel. IIRC, even Sidindica did report about 1.6 SX4 in India. Could be Peugeot, but most likely its from Fiat as both Suzuki and Fiat were already in a an agreement.

The 1.9 is 1870cc according to UK website, but I doubt if Fiat has one in that capacity. It was available, but for E-V norms, they shifted to 2.0 diesel ( even the M16A in EU SX4 was updated to 120 bhp from 107 )

And for UK, its still 1.9 rather than 2.0 for GV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thainogkok View Post
from content from Q&A: Bernd Bohr, Chairman, Bosch Automotive Group

How does Bosch plan to leverage alliances in the auto space, such as the recent one between Volkswagen and Suzuki Motors?


All such alliances are trying to generate synergies which, for them, are synergies in purchasing, so they combine volumes and compare prices. That has an influence on our business and we try and adjust to it. The good thing for us is that we have a global presence. Both Suzuki and Volkswagen are good customers of ours, so if the two go together, we are not left out. That is a strength pure Japanese or pure German suppliers donít have.

readmore 'We are hopeful of large volumes in small cars'
I doubt if both Suzuki and VW will manufacture same engines in different facilities. They will use the best available and then share. Something like Tata Fiat. Tata Fiat went to Suzuki to procure Fiat SDE, but as suzuki had paid high cost, Suzuki refused.
I dont see any gain or loss. VW volumes are not likely to go up to huge numbers. If anything is going to make a differnece, its Suzuki's volumes.

But if VW starts charning money for engines, then the overall cost will up for Suzuki. And if at all the cost goes up, Suzuki is bound to lose on volumes.
I doubt if VW can give similar level of cost effectiveness as Fiat SDE.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
1) Even if its not CR their pump duese is no push over. In fact pump duese gives the added control on each cylinder which CR does not offer due to the common rail being used. Thats why VW often enjoy more mileage than even their European counterparts (excluding BMW).


2) Also, they do have small CR engines!

1.2 TDI 12v BlueMotion75 PS @ 4,000 rpm; 170 newton metres @ 2,000 rpm known for exceptionally low emissions too.

Even the 1.4 TDI pump duese is available till 90 PS and 230 Nm. That should be more than enough to lug not only the Swift but also the Kizashi.

3) Also, at the end of the day, Suzuki will research all these things much more than us before committing into such alliances!
1) Have a look at this :
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...nown-crdi.html (Pumpe-Duse diesel technology as against better known CRDi)

PD has its own advantage, but even VW has replaced PD with CRDI.

2) IIRC, that 1.2 is a three cylinder. Where as Fiat SDE is four. It makes a difference in refinement and in bumper to bumper traffic.

Even hyundai's CRDi motors are not offering better figures than what VW is dishing out to us. Look at Verna. Its a good unit and then look at at what VW is offering.

The major point is delivering fuel efficient and well specs. CRDi engines below 2.0 ltr with cost efficiency. If they deliver it, what better news, but if they cant, both, VW and Suzuki will lose on volumes.

The 1248cc unit is one of the best small capacity motors in the world we can say. It has won awards and has proven itself in India. If worked upon, it is refined ( Swift/Dzire ) and can also give FE with good performace. All this at not very high cost.
Can VW match this ?
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