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Old 31st January 2010, 12:31   #46
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@Ricky 63:
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hondadude View Post
Very objective, very detailed and unique comparo. Haven't seen this before anywhere. Rating this thread as 5 stars.
Many thanks. I could also not find this anywhere hence started this thread.

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Regarding legroom, what should be published is not just "max rear legroom" because that doesn't tell the whole story. What should be published is the combination of max front legroom and remaining rear leg room (after front seat is pushed back to the max). That would give the real picture.
True. What you are referring to is the min rear legroom. In cars where the rear seat has no travel, min rear legroom is obtained when front seat is pushed fully back. This is where I lost out on because the data is not available (reliably). No car's website gives this data except the ANHC (which gives it in comparison to the NHC so isn't really useful). But even this would give a partial picture too. Not many would need to push the seat fully back unless they are 6 foot +. Another thing to consider is the front seat upright angle. Usually people will tilt the front seat by 2-3 notches to be comfortable and that would also affect rear legroom/comfort room. And a median point quote such as giving the rear legroom with the front driver comfortable does not help because of different heights of drivers.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 31st January 2010 at 12:36.
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Old 31st January 2010, 13:58   #47
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Great thread. Makes for wonderful reading.
I guess this community has a lot of ANHC and Linea owners. I hope some of them do actual measurements in their cars regarding minimum rear leg space and post them here (along with photographs too). And the depth of the rear seats too. That should make way for some more interesting thoughts.
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Old 31st January 2010, 21:44   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
Thank you. Interesting info. Is the publication copyrighted? If you have it in soft copy, could you send it to me please?
I have the book which can be bought from NID (atleast we did some years ago). Maybe a soft copy is available, but not likely available for free, it's a 150 page book in large size.

Data collection in this country is bad, but my point in saying what I did is that many architects / designers know of this publication. How do you expect a European designer sitting in Italy working through a bunch of MBAs here in India to know that such data is available? Our technical expertise is not bad, but not much design / technical stuff is handled here. Ever wonder why Tata gets those seat sizes spot on for Indians?
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Old 31st January 2010, 23:27   #49
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If this indicates the trend in TBHP articles, its going to be great and interesting ! Today I took back to back Linea and City road tests and I am back home reading this. Have to agree with your post. OT: My son is now hell bent on buying the Jazz !
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Old 1st February 2010, 11:31   #50
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On the outset, let me thank DeltaWing for enabling me to learn some basics of Paint.NET.

I have redone the diagrams made by DeltaWing to correct the wheelbase error in the City. You can see that in DeltaWing's diagram the wheelbase of City is shown as longer than the Linea's. In reality, it is 53mm shorter than the Linea. In the resulting picture below, you can see that when you scale down the City drawing, there is negligible difference between the rear seat backs of both the cars.
Attached Thumbnails
Linea and City: An Ergonomics Comparo-comp2.jpg  

Linea and City: An Ergonomics Comparo-comp3.jpg  


Last edited by civic-sense : 1st February 2010 at 11:40.
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Old 1st February 2010, 12:07   #51
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The comparison is awesome and done with lots of attention to detail. Thanks to civic_sense.
By the way I own a Honda city ZX and as someone stated Honda packages their products very well. I loved the Jazz and would have bought perhaps had it been launched earlier. Anyway, just want to share that over so many forums I have read Honda receives a fair deal of criticism from people who don't own one. I mean they are just trying to justify why they didn't buy one rather than why they thought the non-Honda they own is justified.
Most the beating is the price. I wonder why Toyota is not crucified for this. Maybe when they will come into the lower market where they will bring in a hatch or some sub-10 lakh car , they might be criticised too for the high price etc etc.
Just my 2 paise (cents is forex )
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Old 1st February 2010, 12:22   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
On the outset, let me thank DeltaWing for enabling me to learn some basics of Paint.NET.

I have redone the diagrams made by DeltaWing to correct the wheelbase error in the City. You can see that in DeltaWing's diagram the wheelbase of City is shown as longer than the Linea's. In reality, it is 53mm shorter than the Linea. In the resulting picture below, you can see that when you scale down the City drawing, there is negligible difference between the rear seat backs of both the cars.
Ignore the second pic in the previous post. Below is a pic of the actual sizes with the front wheels aligned.
Attached Thumbnails
Linea and City: An Ergonomics Comparo-comp4.jpg  

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Old 1st February 2010, 12:56   #53
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This is a good thread, After many months, i have read an entire thread.

Concepts of Space (& time) is always debated. It is different for different people. When it comes to space, Mathematics and Objective analysis of L, W, H is just one method, But people hardly do mathematics (other than cost/price/financing) prior to puchase decision. Importance of space/comfort among the priorities of the puchase criterion / hierarchy of needs is also not the top ranking in India.

It is great effort from the thread starter. I also commend the other member who is challenging the thread starter. the disucssions bring more credibility to the subject. Please do not turn it into a offensive, bash each other discussion.

Both Companies (FIAT & Honda) are great brands, have some very creative and smart engineers and have great porducts.

Thanks

Last edited by StarVegabond : 1st February 2010 at 12:58.
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Old 1st February 2010, 23:03   #54
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I have the hardest fact. I managed to catch somebody an ANHC this morning and measured the WB with a steel measuring tape. The WB IS 2550 mm. This would change the way the cars are compared (explained later). However, first-
@gemithomas:
Many thanks.
@civic-sense:
You're welcome regarding paint.NET, my thanks for the effort in putting up the redone comparo, saved me lot of effort.
Back to topic.
Quote:
...a pic of the actual sizes with the front wheels aligned.
If the WB is reduced in the pic to 2550 mm by shortening the City pic, it also reduces the car's overall length by more than 100 mm and this changes the way in which the rear door (hence the rear seat) is angled as well as the way the roof slopes and changes one major dimension of total length. This was why I have been unwilling to redo the comparo till ascertaining the actual WB. Nevertheless, if considering the WB as an accurate measure, a common point for superimposition has to be decided. This common point has to be the center of the wheelbase of both the cars and not the front wheels (taking the front wheels gives the advantage to Linea). In my original post, my superimpose takes the rear wheel as the common point which gives advantage to Linea. If the WB centers were matched, this gap would increase further. The Linea backseat is ahead of the rear quarterglass frame which is shown more aft. As it is, even with front wheels common, the latest pic posted by civic-sense still shows the City to have more space (in the picture, it is a gap of 1-2 mm at bottom to 3-4 mm at top which would become much more considering points I mentioned and when expanded to life-size).Still, the pics posted today actually seem to be proving my original point.

A major point why the City feels more spacious is the concave design of the dashboard as compared to the slightly convex design in Linea, clever design trick. Don't think I mentioned it earlier.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 1st February 2010 at 23:15.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 01:44   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by architect View Post
...Ever wonder why Tata gets those seat sizes spot on for Indians?
Tatas entered (and won) the car market on the size of Indica, which remains unrivalled in hatchbacks, hehe, sedans would run for cover too. But what is there to make it say about anthropometry of Indians? Your point is that a local guy would think about local requirements, eh? Absolutely, who else? Especially given the cultural difference? Someone who is making money in developed countries already is just playing on a wider ground when they come to India, but for Tata, it's their repute at stake. I can very well wonder that Italian guy whatsisnameagain GuilamoGuilorinooo....etc thinking at his design table,'...hmmm, this car needs to seat Indians so lemme see if I can find India on the map..., never mind, the design's sold enough in Europe...', and Mr Tata saying to his people, 'arre bhai, backseat drivers need more room...it's prestigious to stretch your legs in the rear seat...etcetc.' And those people would know about NID and its report. Well, what can i say more?
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Old 2nd February 2010, 09:50   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
I have the hardest fact. I managed to catch somebody an ANHC this morning and measured the WB with a steel measuring tape. The WB IS 2550 mm. This would change the way the cars are compared (explained later). However, first-
@gemithomas:
Many thanks.
@civic-sense:
You're welcome regarding paint.NET, my thanks for the effort in putting up the redone comparo, saved me lot of effort.
Back to topic.
If the WB is reduced in the pic to 2550 mm by shortening the City pic, it also reduces the car's overall length by more than 100 mm and this changes the way in which the rear door (hence the rear seat) is angled as well as the way the roof slopes and changes one major dimension of total length. This was why I have been unwilling to redo the comparo till ascertaining the actual WB. Nevertheless, if considering the WB as an accurate measure, a common point for superimposition has to be decided. This common point has to be the center of the wheelbase of both the cars and not the front wheels (taking the front wheels gives the advantage to Linea). In my original post, my superimpose takes the rear wheel as the common point which gives advantage to Linea. If the WB centers were matched, this gap would increase further. The Linea backseat is ahead of the rear quarterglass frame which is shown more aft. As it is, even with front wheels common, the latest pic posted by civic-sense still shows the City to have more space (in the picture, it is a gap of 1-2 mm at bottom to 3-4 mm at top which would become much more considering points I mentioned and when expanded to life-size).Still, the pics posted today actually seem to be proving my original point.

A major point why the City feels more spacious is the concave design of the dashboard as compared to the slightly convex design in Linea, clever design trick. Don't think I mentioned it earlier.
The city was designed with the asian markets in mind where people demand "more car per car". If you look at the Palio, it has more interior space than even the City, and that is because it is built for third world countries. Punto (on which Linea is based), was built for the european markets.

I agree that City has managed space better than the Linea. What I objected to, is the claim that it is decisive. To me, the difference is negligible. I have test driven both, sat on both, and did not feel any appreciable difference between them.

I wanted to buy the City, but by the time I was deciding the onroad price had gone up to 11.5L for the auto. I found it prudent to buy a used civic and bank the savings.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 10:49   #57
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
If you look at the Palio, it has more interior space than even the City,
Are you sure? Probably just the shoulder width and not the leg room/depth of the seat base.

Last edited by Guna : 2nd February 2010 at 10:50.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 11:18   #58
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Dear Delta Wing,

My congratulation to you for the wonderful work which you have done
@ Civic Sens
Thank you too for all your efforts.

Debates like these actually keep the souls of TBHPians alive & make them look for more. Isnt thats why we are the biggest online community on cars.

Well writtten!!!
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Old 2nd February 2010, 13:21   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guna View Post
Are you sure? Probably just the shoulder width and not the leg room/depth of the seat base.
When I had my Palio, and my cousin bought the NHC, I had sat in the City, and found that legroom in the front was much better in the Palio. Similar in the rear. Even my civic has less legroom in the front than the Palio.
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Old 2nd February 2010, 14:21   #60
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@Delta_Wing, awesome post, though there are minor errors in calcualtiions here and there. A phenomenal effort, I must say.

On a different note, may I draw the attention of the folks towards front driver seat:

I own and drive an ANHC. Sometimes, I my head gets banged inadvertantly on the door frame of the front dirver seat if I am bit unmindful. This, I guess, is due ot the sloping roof line in the front. My case is worsened becasue, I prefer to have my seat a bit elevated position. This is again due ot the fact that my lower body portion is longer than the upper body potion than usual. BTW, I am 5'8".

It happened to one my friend also who is about 5'9'', who banged his head really hard inadvertantly, while getting into the drivers seat.

Could this be counted as an ergonomics issue for ANHC?

Disclaimer: If someone has already mentioned it, please ignore this post.

Cheers
Pratim

Last edited by pratim : 2nd February 2010 at 14:23.
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