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Old 10th February 2010, 17:06   #61
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Even we'll say Indica is the worst car to buy if it is sold for Rs. 8 Lacs instead of Rs. 4 Lacs. The CityRover that James May drove was priced at GBP 9000 I think.

Had it been sold for GBP 4500, I think James May would have been impressed with the car.
Naturally a car which costs 4 lakhs in India and is exported to UK will cost GBP 9000. Even Grande Punto which sells for 5 lacs in India costs GBP 9800 in UK.

Why james may, even the majority of people in T-BHP would not recommend an Indica over a Maruti or Hyundai.

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IMO it does not make any sense to say Chinese can make quality cars cause once upon a time they made quality folding Scissors and Hero pen
Will it make sense if i say that this is the same country that has a Bullet train network that runs at 500kph, it owns and runs today one of the iconic companies of capitalism (IBM PC), it can stage a sucessfull olympics(and we are struggling to conduct a CWG),etc,etc..

Let us be honest and accept that Chinese, have indeed arrived, and its only a matter of time before they dominate and excel in the world stage.

Last edited by Daewood : 10th February 2010 at 17:07.
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Old 10th February 2010, 17:45   #62
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Why james may, even the majority of people in T-BHP would not recommend an Indica over a Maruti or Hyundai.
A couple of months back, I recommended an Indica Vista to my father-in-law over a Hyundai, Maruti and a Chevrolet. Father-in-law is a happy man now!
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Old 10th February 2010, 18:49   #63
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I certainly woundn't dismiss the Chinese Auto firms. The speed at which they have improved is astounding. What was a joke 10 years ago is now a formidable competitor.

As with any aspirational developing country with a strong underlying culture and self belief such as Japan, Korea, China and India, this is a natural stage of market evolution. As we cross that critical point to rapid growth, the market starts opening up where initially price and VFM becomes the primary factor to the aspiring masses.

What was hitherto a status symbol for the masses becomes suddenly attainable. Automobiles which serve the purpose and are cheap to maintain will make it in the market. If I look at the QQ which evolved from the Matiz, I am sure that at Rs. 2.2 Lakhs it wont come off too poorly compared to the M800 and the Nano to an extent in the VFM stakes if the A.S.S. is decent. People who normally use these cars in the city will not use crash tests as a criterion for purchase when in the market to buy their first car or additional family car. It is safer than using a 2 wheeler and a lot more convenient than uncomfortable, noisy public transport which exposes one more to the polluted city environs in India.

If we step back and take a look at this scenario from an Indian perspective as opposed to a mature western market, we can see that the Chinese do make a very good case. Even Tata, Mahindra, Bajaj, TVS etc, are going through a learning curve.

The next generation of vehicles that come out of these evolving companies will certainly include better design and manufacturing practices with newer models. Till then their main USP will have to be price - And the market will decide - VFM is a stronger factor than sniggering party jokes - remember the Skoda jokes of yesteryears.

I think our manufacturers are up to the challenge and it could make our Indian industry stronger to provide better quality products at only an acceptable mark up over the Chinese prices. This could be a giant killing factor if find an international market where we have products at say 95% of international norms at 75 - 80% of their prices...this is my current impression of these potential new developments
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Old 10th February 2010, 19:09   #64
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Will it make sense if i say that this is the same country that has a Bullet train network that runs at 500kph, it owns and runs today one of the iconic companies of capitalism (IBM PC), it can stage a sucessfull olympics(and we are struggling to conduct a CWG),etc,etc..
Bullet train (Maglev/Transrapid) which you see in China is not made by Chinese my friend, but by Germans!!

IBM-PC was a small part of the Big Blue which was acquired by Lenovo.

By the way even the Russians hosted Olympics in 1980, does that mean they can build better cars
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Old 11th February 2010, 09:40   #65
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btw, olympics were around when the fastest cars were powered by real horses.

The problem with Chinese cars is that they will price is very low and our people will buy them and get killed. I hope the govt does something and enforce some minimum quality standards
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Old 11th February 2010, 22:22   #66
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Why james may, even the majority of people in T-BHP would not recommend an Indica over a Maruti or Hyundai.

Please open your eyes and see how many satisfied indica vista owners we have on T-bhp. I hope you stop making these crapy statements. Also indian auto makers tata and mahindra sell in a lot of overseas locations. We have a Tata safari thread with some satisfied italian owners posting. Tata nano already passed the crash tests in UK. Mahindra is getting ready to release in USA. When it comes to china cars they have not even passed safety tests in atleast one popular developed country. Don't even try to compare chinese with Tata's or Mahindra's. And James May: Western media tries it's best to kill products from competing companies. Eg: When AIRbus delayed A380 USA media hyped it so much. They almost talked as if it's end of Airbus. No american company ordered an A380. But boeing dreamliner got delayed they did not make much of it. Actually dreamliner delay is longer than A380 and is expected to contribute more revenue. Every time a chinese car fails safety tests, it's all over the news. It's one way of defending one's market. But when it comes to india we have people like you who are so stiken with this videsi smell. Why do you need a videsi to tell you about Indica?

Will it make sense if i say that this is the same country that has a Bullet train network that runs at 500kph, it owns and runs today one of the iconic companies of capitalism (IBM PC), it can stage a sucessfull olympics(and we are struggling to conduct a CWG),etc,etc..

Let us be honest and accept that Chinese, have indeed arrived, and its only a matter of time before they dominate and excel in the world stage.[/quote]

What likd of a comparision is that. The bullet train is not chinese make. Lenovo is no more iconic. It's brand value has fallen drastically once owned by Chinese.

I am not saying chinese have not arrived. But the world is yet to see a quality product (100%) from China. They have arrived in cheap manufacturing. They may in some point in future do it but I am sure Chery fails in india at this point.
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Old 12th February 2010, 10:05   #67
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I guess Chery is going to face the same fate as chinese bikes.
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Old 12th February 2010, 18:31   #68
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Please open your eyes and see how many satisfied indica vista owners we have on T-bhp. I hope you stop making these crapy statements.
Satisfaction is a state of the mind.
We are not talking about that. We are only talking about quality of Tata cars vs Cherry cars vs maruti vs Hyundai

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Also indian auto makers tata and mahindra sell in a lot of overseas locations. We have a Tata safari thread with some satisfied italian owners posting. Tata nano already passed the crash tests in UK. Mahindra is getting ready to release in USA. When it comes to china cars they have not even passed safety tests in atleast one popular developed country.
Even Cherry sells in Singapore, South Africa, etc
Do you know Indica was stopped in Uk after 1 year due to
huge embaressment caused by negative feedback.

And the Tata Nano that has passed the crash tests is not the same as sold in India.
Those ones cost 3 times more than what it costs in India.
The expected price of the US nano is $8000!!!
Even the Cherry cars sold in South Africa have passed ECE R94, ECE R34, ECE R95,etc

And Cherry has collabrations with the same company in Italy which designed Indica and also with Bosch which helped TATA with their Nano engine.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
But when it comes to india we have people like you who are so stiken with this videsi smell. Why do you need a videsi to tell you about Indica?
Tata is an Indian company..but do you know how much percentage of shareholding is with foreign financial institutions. Infact Tata has outgrown its Indian dependance long back and today it earns more than 2 thirds of its revenues from foreign shores. For this very reason the next Chairman of TATA is not going to be an Indian. This was suggested by Mr. Ratan Tata himself.
Please see them as MNCs operating for their own good and you won't be thumping your chests with pride. Plans are afoot to make Cherry a private equity funded firm and tomorrow it may become an Indian company

..and please don't let your eyes be blinded by patriotism

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
But the world is yet to see a quality product (100%) from China. They have arrived in cheap manufacturing.
For that matter no auto maker today can afford to go it all alone. Everone has collabration with some other to survive in this competitive scenario. (eg. GM-Suzuki, Fiat-Suzuki, Volkswagen-Suzuki, Tata-Bosch,etc,etc)

Last edited by Daewood : 12th February 2010 at 18:35.
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Old 12th February 2010, 18:36   #69
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The indica stopped selling since Rover went bust. It was overpriced in the first place
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Old 12th February 2010, 19:56   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daewood
Tata is an Indian company..but do you know how much percentage of shareholding is with foreign financial institutions. Infact Tata has outgrown its Indian dependance long back and today it earns more than 2 thirds of its revenues from foreign shores. For this very reason the next Chairman of TATA is not going to be an Indian. This was suggested by Mr. Ratan Tata himself.

Please see them as MNCs operating for their own good and you won't be thumping your chests with pride. Plans are afoot to make Cherry a private equity funded firm and tomorrow it may become an Indian company

..and please don't let your eyes be blinded by patriotism
FIIs own only 15% of Tata Motors. Rest is owned by the promoter group, Indian FIs and the public. Even if a company is majority owned by FIIs (like Infosys), it is still recognized as an 'Indian' company.

And this matters a lot. Whenever a 'Indian' company does something big, like acquisition of JLR or engineering a product like the Nano, it helps improve India's Nation Branding. You can read more about Nation Branding here -

Nation branding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Higher score in NBI index helps a country get more tourists and improve its business prospects. For eg: An US Company would be more confident of awarding a $500 million contract with an Indian company, rather than a company in Pakistan - because of all the good work done by companies like Infy, Tata Motors.

So, in that way, patriotism and "being proud" does matter. If Hyundai makes big money in India & elsewhere, the country doesn't gain much. But if Tata Motors makes big money in India & elsewhere, the entire country gains.

I'm not suggesting that one should buy a Tata Motors product if it is inferior. I'm saying - don't berate Tata Motors or put down its achievements.
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Old 12th February 2010, 20:17   #71
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Quite a few people have quoted Chery cars as being unsafe. But as per wikipedia, their cars are quite safe. The city car, QQ and the sedan 'Cowin' are classified as safe. I think they are as safe as Tatas, Marutis and Hyundais. In my opinion, Chery will be like any other car (low cost) in India. I think the name may take some time for the Indian buyer to get used to
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Old 12th February 2010, 22:24   #72
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The only way I see Chinese cars selling in India is by re-badging them through their Jv such as Shangai Motors - GM. If they are sold as Chevy products, probably. A stand alone Chinese brand will not cut much ice here. I feel this will also go the Chinese bikes way.

I don't see myself buying a Chinese car. I checked with about 15 of my friends and almost all said no - except two who said may be they will, if it is offered at half the price of a comparable product, and is backed by a reputable Indian partner!

People are prepared to buy cheap toys, battery cells, scissors, nail cutters, even cheap mobiles - in short, things that will be disposable, from China. A car or a bike is a different matter. Well, I know my Sony Ericsson mobile and the peripherals of my pc are made in China - but I trust the brands, and will not mind even if they are made in Timbucktoo!
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Old 13th February 2010, 04:21   #73
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IMO rarely has a good (and also good looking) car failed. I hope Chery would not be an exception to the rule. As previously stated chinese cars loose the value proposition in india, which they have in Europe and US. So it will be a tough fight. And on top of this, if they are able to deliver a good product may be there is something for indian companies to learn.

IMO, indian companies have so far learned the tricks from Japs. May be it is time to learn a trick or two from chinese too
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Old 13th February 2010, 06:27   #74
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Chery and for that matter other such companies like Geely etc. have poor image even in predominantly Chinese societies like HK/Singpaore etc. They do poorly. Of course, these are also affluent markets so it is a bit different.

In India, they have to be either sold in stealth ala GM or be dead cheap and damn good. The chances of the second one happening are remote as of now..

Re. Japs and Korean comparisons, they are apt and yet they are different. Both nations only had to battle product quality issues. They were never seen as strategic rivals to west. China on top of that has to battle various political (human rights, commie) and economic security (jobs, outsourcing, cheap labor without rights) and strategic issues (rival to US or West) that add to complexity. Japan, Korea became big and then became a big threat - China is doing it other way around.
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Old 14th February 2010, 14:21   #75
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There can be one good thing from Chinese Cars coming to India, i.e the price of the cars that are being sold in India will come down. Alternatively, the features on offer will increase.
In fact before the Chinese Mobiles were introduced in India, low end mobiles from various manufacturers were sold at high prices. Later, the prices have come down & many Indian Manufacturers have started their mobiles at attractive prices. Similar story was repeated in Motorcycles business as well, though the Chinese manufacturers have not been really successful in this business.

Let's hope for the best out of Cherry's efforts.
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