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Old 15th February 2010, 05:24   #76
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My guess is that they would go the Rio way and partner with a local player. Any idea if they are in talks with someone here?
One company that comes to mind is HM...Nothing interesting happening with HM these days....
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Old 17th February 2010, 22:43   #77
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Satisfaction is a state of the mind.
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We are not talking about that. We are only talking about quality of Tata cars vs Cherry cars vs maruti vs Hyundai

A: When the owners themselves are happy who are you to complain. Look at Manza owners as examples.

Even Cherry sells in Singapore, South Africa, etc
Do you know Indica was stopped in Uk after 1 year due to
huge embaressment caused by negative feedback.

A: Cherry's numbers in South Africa are way less than tata's. That itself gives you an comparision. Actually there numbers are almost negligeble there. Again I said developed countries.

Indica was stopped in UK as Rover went bankrupt. Tata is re-launching Indica there in 2011.

And the Tata Nano that has passed the crash tests is not the same as sold in India.

A. I feel sorry for your ignorance. That's a indian nano which passed the test. OK lets assume it's europa version, is it not a good thing. Cherry didnot manage that in UK. Please open your eyes and take a look at this video. Even tata executives have said it is the indian version which is tested. They said they want to test the indian version first to understand the extra features required for the europa version.

Tata Nano Passes European Crash Tests - tata nano crash test - Jalopnik

Those ones cost 3 times more than what it costs in India.
The expected price of the US nano is $8000!!!
Even the Cherry cars sold in South Africa have passed ECE R94, ECE R34, ECE R95,etc

And Cherry has collabrations with the same company in Italy which designed Indica and also with Bosch which helped TATA with their Nano engine.

A: Every company collabarates with big vendors. Even the failed ones did. That doesnot ensure quality.




Tata is an Indian company..but do you know how much percentage of shareholding is with foreign financial institutions. Infact Tata has outgrown its Indian dependance long back and today it earns more than 2 thirds of its revenues from foreign shores. For this very reason the next Chairman of TATA is not going to be an Indian. This was suggested by Mr. Ratan Tata himself.
Please see them as MNCs operating for their own good and you won't be thumping your chests with pride. Plans are afoot to make Cherry a private equity funded firm and tomorrow it may become an Indian company

For that matter no auto maker today can afford to go it all alone. Everone has collabration with some other to survive in this competitive scenario. (eg. GM-Suzuki, Fiat-Suzuki, Volkswagen-Suzuki, Tata-Bosch,etc,etc)


A: Well, let me try open your eyes again. From Wikipedia about tata group.

The Tata Group comprises 114 companies and subsidiaries in seven business sectors [COLOR=#002bb8][5][/COLOR], 27 of which are publicly listed. 65.8% of the ownership of Tata Group is held in charitable trusts.

..and please don't let your eyes be blinded by patriotism

A: You will only know what is patriotism when you lose your job to a foreigner or get kicked out of a foreign country. We had people who fought on the british side using the same logic as yours. Also, if a indian company grows that will create jobs in India. But videsi company created jobs in videsi land. As another user mentioned it is called nation branding. But for that sake I am not asking you buy tata or mahindra. Just give them a fair chance.

One will only feel patriotic when he feels part of the country.
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Old 18th February 2010, 11:04   #78
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Guys, check these crash test videos of chinese cars. I am worried on the integrity of safety.






except for the Chery A3, which was awarded 5 stars



I guess the 2nd world war era beetle is far safer those BS6's, check this video!

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Old 18th February 2010, 15:16   #79
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
When the owners themselves are happy who are you to complain.
I can ask the same back to you. Who are you to complain when Cherry has had more than
4 lakh buyers last year alone in a market where GM, Volkswagen, etc are present.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Cherry's numbers in South Africa are way less than tata's. That itself gives you an comparision.
Can you please give us the comparison data.
And we are talking only about cars and not trucks, etc.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Indica was stopped in UK as Rover went bankrupt. Tata is re-launching Indica there in 2011.
So you mean to say that INDICA was a roaring success in the 1 year period it was sold in UK and exports were stopped only because Rover wasn’t doing well.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
I feel sorry for your ignorance. That's a indian nano which passed the test.
It’s you who is ignorant.
Can’t you make out that a car which costs 3 times more than it’s current avatar
will definitely have something more to it.
Just read the last paragraph in this http://www.zigwheels.com/News/Tata-N...2_20090729-1-1


Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender View Post
You will only know what is patriotism when you lose your job to a foreigner or get kicked out of a foreign country. We had people who fought on the british side using the same logic as yours.
Where was your patriotism when Mr. Carl-Peter Forster was appointed as TATA Motors CEO?
Hasn’t a foreigner stolen an Indian’s job?

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Also, if a indian company grows that will create jobs in India. But videsi company created jobs in videsi land.
And your videshi theory is from the 18th century. Whether an Indian or a foreign company sets up a plant in India, it is always going to be Indian jobseekers and consumers who are going to be benifitted.
Do you think that Hyundai and Volkswagen employ only their nationals in India?
If we’ve had kept our doors shut to videshi companies even today all of us will be driving only a 32 bhp Premier Padmini or an Ambassador.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
As another user mentioned it is called nation branding.
Agreed nation branding is essential. But the question is whether you wan’t to be known as a country which produces quality products or a mass producer of cheap products.
What the Oberoi hotels adds up to Indian brand is finest quality,
What Tata Motors adds up to Indian brand is cheap mass producer.

Last edited by Daewood : 18th February 2010 at 15:33.
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:40   #80
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I can ask the same back to you. Who are you to complain when Cherry has had more than
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
4 lakh buyers last year alone in a market where GM, Volkswagen, etc are present.

A: Tata has bigger market share than cherry has in it's domestic market. Competitors are more or less same. Tata is no 2 today in india. What about chery in China?

Do you know any happy chery customers?


Can you please give us the comparison data.
And we are talking only about cars and not trucks, etc.

A: You are the one who started with south africa. Why don't you do that. By the way chery is not releasing it's trucks here. SO that's OT.


So you mean to say that INDICA was a roaring success in the 1 year period it was sold in UK and exports were stopped only because Rover wasn’t doing well.

A: I never said that. You can't win. So you put words in to my statements.


It’s you who is ignorant.
Can’t you make out that a car which costs 3 times more than it’s current avatar
will definitely have something more to it.
Just read the last paragraph in this http://www.zigwheels.com/News/Tata-Nano-is-a-tough-cookie/Nano12_20090729-1-1

A:Modifications were minimum. And your eyes should tell you it's not a europa version. Even assuming it's a europa version, it faired a lot better than chery's test cars. Look at the videos in the above thread.



Where was your patriotism when Mr. Carl-Peter Forster was appointed as TATA Motors CEO?
Hasn’t a foreigner stolen an Indian’s job?

A: Tata group earns more revenue for outside india. But it's majority of employees are indians. I don't have a right no but expect for corus tata doesnot have a lot of workers out of india.



And your videshi theory is from the 18th century. Whether an Indian or a foreign company sets up a plant in India, it is always going to be Indian jobseekers and consumers who are going to be benifitted.
Do you think that Hyundai and Volkswagen employ only their nationals in India?
If we’ve had kept our doors shut to videshi companies even today all of us will be driving only a 32 bhp Premier Padmini or an Ambassador.

A: Hyundai or Volkswagen, how much R&D do they do in India. They do create jobs but less than our indian auto makers. I am not aganist foreign companies. I am only aganist people like you who take every opportunity to make indian companies favorate punching bags. I love competition and will always encourage it. Will you use the same theory when it comes to your family.

I would always say let the best car win.



Agreed nation branding is essential. But the question is whether you wan’t to be known as a country which produces quality products or a mass producer of cheap products.
What the Oberoi hotels adds up to Indian brand is finest quality,
What Tata Motors adds up to Indian brand is cheap mass producer.
Quality is a ladder to climb. Tata's second generation pasenger cars are lot better than the first. Vista to indica, manza to indigo. Every automaker starts as cheap.


WHen ratan tata showcased tata nano, a lot people said indian customers would prefer maruti 800 to nano saying 800 is better than nano. Now 800 is almost dying and they don't talk about it any longer. Some people voice there opinion and when proved wrong shy away from talking about it. There is no way to decide who is right or wrong.

Why don't we save this discussion for later and see how chery performs. Lets both revisit this thread one year from now and see if cherry can manage success(if they manage to launch). I am ready to commit. Are you?

Last edited by airbender : 18th February 2010 at 22:57. Reason: merging
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Old 18th February 2010, 22:54   #81
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I can ask the same back to you. Who are you to complain when Cherry has had more than
4 lakh buyers last year alone in a market where GM, Volkswagen, etc are present.

Do you know any happy chery customers?

Mods: If possible please merge with my previous quote.
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Old 19th February 2010, 09:44   #82
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Guys, cool down. Let Chery first come to India. There is a saying in Tamil which translates loosely as "let aunty sprout a moustache first, then we will decide what to call her!"

Remember what happened to the Indian entry of Chinese bikes!
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Old 19th February 2010, 12:16   #83
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Where was your patriotism when Mr. Carl-Peter Forster was appointed as TATA Motors CEO?
Hasnít a foreigner stolen an Indianís job?

Do you think that Hyundai and Volkswagen employ only their nationals in India? If weíve had kept our doors shut to videshi companies even today all of us will be driving only a 32 bhp Premier Padmini or an Ambassador.
As an Indian, i am more prouder. An indian company employing a videshi as its head, There is no one as patriotic as Ratan Tata in India now. And the Tata brand increased the overall brand value of India Inc.

We are not against any company that got good technology setting up shop in India. But defenitely Chinese should not be allowed to dump their products in India. If they start manufacturing in India, let then do it, but please , no SKD kits from China..
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Old 19th February 2010, 14:35   #84
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IMO its best that we keep the arguments till Chery launches their vehicles in India. Let's see what they have to offer and also the Indian car buying public is not dumb enough to go buy a death trap just because its cheap.
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Old 19th February 2010, 16:05   #85
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Tata has bigger market share than cherry has in it's domestic market. Competitors are more or less same. Tata is no 2 today in india. What about chery in China?
The entire discussion was about quality of cars made by TATA vs CHERY and not about sales numbers. If sales numbers is an indication of quality then is TATA cars better in quality than Ford or Fiat in India?

..and in terms of numbers too Chery sells more number of cars in China than TATA in India.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Do you know any happy cherry customers?
Do you think lakhs of people buy Chery cars because of full page ads released by the company. Majority of car sales happens by word of mouth and if there aren’t any happy owners will Chery be able to sell cars.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Can you please give us the comparison data.
A: You are the one who started with south africa. Why don't you do that.
I never talked about the sales numbers in SA. I only talked about the crash worthiness of Chery cars sold in SA.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Modifications were minimum. And your eyes should tell you it's not a europa version. Even assuming it's a europa version, it faired a lot better than chery's test cars. Look at the videos in the above thread.
Modifications to improve a car’s safety will not be visible on the outside.
They are done at the structural level.

In the above video-post the only Chery car featured is the A3, which is given 5 stars.

Has Tata ever released their bestsellers like SUMO for crash tests whereas, today Chery cars are subjected to C-NCAP tests and results available publicly.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Tata group earns more revenue for outside india. But it's majority of employees are indians. I don't have a right no but expect for corus tata does not have a lot of workers out of india.
Majority of revenues are from subsidiaries and acquired companies like JLR, Corus, Tyco, Tetley, etc and in all these companies the majority are not definitely Indian nationals.
and 65% of TATA's revenue is from CORUS.

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Hyundai or Volkswagen, how much R&D do they do in India. They do create jobs but less than our indian auto makers.
And what do mean by create less jobs? Do they make their employees to work 16 years per day and thereby create less jobs.

Unfortunately the talent required for Auto R&D is not abundant in India,
but still foreign automakers like Ford do have R&D facilities in India.

Why don’t you complain when many foreign IT giants setup their R&D centres in India rather than in some other country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender View Post
I am only aganist people like you who take every opportunity to make indian companies favorate punching bags. I love competition and will always encourage it. Will you use the same theory when it comes to your family.
I’m only against people like you who jump at every opportunity to find fault with foreign companies. We have people like you who will file lawsuits against a Pepsi because it contained minute traces of pesticide when all the vegetables and fruits we consume contain much more pesticides.
Our NGOs never raise a voice against restaurants and eateries whose kitchens will put a public toilet to shame, because they are INDIAN businesses.

I’m not against companies that strive to produce good quality in whatever field they are in. There are many admirable Indian companies like Hero Honda because of their commitment to quality.

And don't confuse a commercial consumer action like car selection with friends and family. Will you take a test drive before selecting them?

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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Quality is a ladder to climb. Tata's second generation pasenger cars are lot better than the first. Vista to indica, manza to indigo. Every automaker starts as cheap.
The same applies to Chery also. It wasn’t started 50 years back, it’s only a 11 year old company. They have come a long way from the days of cloning matiz to the current A3

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender View Post
WHen ratan tata showcased tata nano, a lot people said indian customers would prefer maruti 800 to nano saying 800 is better than nano. Now 800 is almost dying and they don't talk about it any longer. Some people voice there opinion and when proved wrong shy away from talking about it. There is no way to decide who is right or wrong.
Today only 25% of new cars sold, is in the entry level or A segment compared to 80% a few years back. The action is in the B segment.
Maruti has taken a wise decision of not reducing 800 prices and taking on the Nano.

And you wait and see what the selling price of Nano is after 2 years. Already the AC version sells at 1.65 lakhs. This has been Tata’s strategy for years. Create an impression of cheap and later sell it at a higher cost, blaming the input costs for increased price.

When they planned to launch the Indica they said it will be cheaper than 800 but did they keep their promise?
I too fought with my dad when he went ahead and booked a Santro instead of Indica way back in 99. My thinking was similar to yours back then.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Remember what happened to the Indian entry of Chinese bikes!
Those bike sellers were fly-by-night operators. can't compare them Chery which is a company with global aspirations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Why don't we save this discussion for later and see how chery performs. Lets both revisit this thread one year from now and see if cherry can manage success(if they manage to launch). I am ready to commit. Are you?
I’m ready if Cherry is given a level playing field in India like given for Tatas (1000 acres land at stone age prices, taxpayers money lended at 0.6% interest) we can compare after a few years.

Till then I wish not to post again in this thread.

Last edited by Daewood : 19th February 2010 at 16:11.
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Old 19th February 2010, 16:25   #86
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Those bike sellers were fly-by-night operators. can't compare them Chery which is a company with global aspirations.

Iím ready if Cherry is given a level playing field in India like given for Tatas (1000 acres land at stone age prices, taxpayers money lended at 0.6% interest) we can compare after a few years.
This is the most juvenile post I have read in recent memory.

People will buy a car from a friendly or neutral country. China is neither. There will be inherent animosity in their minds while considering the cars.

They wont buy the cars, any more than they will buy one made in Pakistan. Period.
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Old 19th February 2010, 16:53   #87
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People will buy a car from a friendly or neutral country. China is neither. There will be inherent animosity in their minds while considering the cars.
They all say that until they're out there. Take a look left or right, Walmart or EBay India.....Chinese have indeed arrived. Let's wait and watch for their automobiles. It's too early to comment. If they price their entry model anyway near NANO, people will buy them. Plain and simple....just like they buy their useless blackberry and Nokia clones and A-Z of electronics, stationary, household items etc.
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Old 19th February 2010, 17:02   #88
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They all say that until they're out there. Take a look left or right, Walmart or EBay India.....Chinese have indeed arrived. Let's wait and watch for their automobiles. It's too early to comment. If they price their entry model anyway near NANO, people will buy them. Plain and simple....just like they buy their useless blackberry and Nokia clones and A-Z of electronics, stationary, household items etc.
Correct. As I said in an earlier post, people will buy products from China that are cheap and disposable. Cars are a big ticket purchase and a different matter altogether.
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Old 19th February 2010, 21:48   #89
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I’m ready if Cherry is given a level playing field in India like given for Tatas (1000 acres land at stone age prices, taxpayers money lended at 0.6% interest) we can compare after a few years.

Till then I wish not to post again in this thread.[/quote]


Incentives are given to every company everywhere. I have seen lot of foreign companies getting incentives in my own state. Some even got free land. So this is not something specific to tata's. If chery is to create so many jobs as tata gujarat government will offer them the same incentives. Now a days states are competing to offer incentives to attact investment. Looks like you are just looking for an excuse to chicken out with those if's and but's.

Now lets talk about chery(even the logo is copied) and china. This is from wikipedia:

Chery is known for copying foreign designs, including General Motors' Korean subsidiary GM Daewoo Auto & Technology's Daewoo Matiz city car (sold as the Chery QQ and Daewoo Magnus mid-size sedan (sold as the Chery Eastar), along with the emblem appearing derived from the Infiniti emblem. Chery attempted to negotiate local Chinese production licenses of those vehicles with bankrupt Daewoo Motors prior to General Motors' purchase of the bankrupt automaker's assets in 2002, but the negotiations were never closed. Nevertheless, Chery proceeded with the production of these former Daewoo vehicles without a license, triggering General Motors to sue Chery for infringement in December 2004, citing "extreme similarities".
General Motors has been unable to press its case against Chery in the Chinese courts, despite pressure from the Chinese government. In November 2005, GM opted to drop its case to preserve its other interests in China and maintain good will with the government. However, GM reserves rights to sue Chery again if it attempts to bring the vehicles in question to European and North American markets. The affected vehicles are the Matiz clone and derivatives (QQ3, QQ6 and A1) and the Magnus clone and derivatives (Eastar, V4, B12, and B22). The IP rights issue has become such a concern that DCX is rumored to have contacted GM for possible licensing of GM Daewoo vehicle IP on the behalf of Chery after it signed a 25-year cooperation and exclusive distribution agreement with Chery in early 2007.


Without any if's and but's my offer is still valid. Either you commit or chicken out.

One will only feel patriotic if one feels part of the country.

Last edited by airbender : 19th February 2010 at 21:54. Reason: editing
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Old 19th February 2010, 23:25   #90
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Without any if's and but's my offer is still valid. Either you commit or chicken out.

One will only feel patriotic if one feels part of the country.
From where does patriotism come in to picture when one is considering to buy a car. Atleast when I consider buying a car/product I check into which car/company gives me best bang for the buck. If the product is good, no one is going to check if it is Chinese or Indian.No car should be judged because of where it is made in.Please save your comments till Chery actually releases their vehicles.

Both you guys are arguing on some pointless matter.Every country gives its home grown companies protection/incentives and that is nothing new.
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