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Old 11th February 2010, 11:48   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO;
Well said. However, for the Jazz:

1. The i20 is equally high quality and cheaper too.

2. The Jazz doesn't even have a parcel tray or alloy wheels! Compare that to the 1.25 lakh rupee cheaper i20 that has amenities to match a 20 lakh sedan.
+1 to the above post. Was thinking the same thing when i read the original post. The i20 is no way low quality

Last edited by GTO : 11th February 2010 at 13:38.
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Old 11th February 2010, 12:21   #62
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I have never paid attention to the number earlier.. I simply assumed Hyundai will be in No 2 position.. surprised to see Tata there..
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Old 11th February 2010, 12:32   #63
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I've actually been thinking to myself as to just why the Jazz is so expensive. It qualifies for excise duty benefits, shares parts with the honda city and has minimal equipment. Safety yes but the same is available in most of the lower priced competition.
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Old 11th February 2010, 12:57   #64
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Jazz might be expensive at Rs. 8.5 Lacs but the Jazz buyer will the one laughing all the way to the bank after 5 years when he sells it for Rs. 4 Lacs - the Honda reliability, image and resale value coming into the picture once again.

In an Autocar India interview, Honda India CEO had mentioned that Jazz is more expensive to manufacture than the new City - because the Jazz uses better materials and has better finish/shutlines than the City.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:05   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
1. The i20 is equally high quality and cheaper too.

2. The Jazz doesn't even have a parcel tray or alloy wheels! Compare that to the 1.25 lakh rupee cheaper i20 that has amenities to match a 20 lakh sedan.
Bull's eye.
I think the average buyer in India has a higher image of a sedan status-wise than a hatchback. This would be a setback to a hatch which ventures into the price territory of the sedans. Premium hatchbacks are still struggling for a foothold here as brought out by the charts for Fabia, Jazz etc. Other problems such as reach and quality of A.S.S. would only add to the woes. Conversely, the sedans which keep somewhere near or a little higher than the hatchback pricing would run away with the moolah, case in point being the DZire and Manza.
Whereas high quality+high price is acceptable as VFM, high price need not translate to high quality automatically and low price need not mean an outright bad product. IMO, for a car to succeed, the sum of 'quality + price + A.S.S. + brand image + status' has to reach a satisfactory total for the individual buyer and this is VFM for that particular buyer. And in this equation, each of the attributes may have differing importance for each buyer but so far as a car satisfies the sum for many buyers in that segment, it can be a success.

Last edited by Delta Wing : 11th February 2010 at 13:14.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:29   #66
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Nice Analysis GTO & Vasudeva.

Good to see TML get up to 2nd spot in overall sales. They have come a long way in quality in the last few years.

My guess with low Vista sales is the dashboard configuration and low quality look of its interiors despite improvements on the V2. If you visit a TML showroom, step into a Manza and then into a Vista, the difference in quality is v a s t!

Their situation will be enviable once the Nano production steps up and even later once the Nano and Aria are made available "off-the-shelf".

With the Jazz, Honda have dug a hole for themselves here and the only way to get out of it is to drop its sticker price drastically or give more features than competition at the same price.

Fiat seem to have lost it with the Punto. If it has such less sales barely 7 months from launch, the future looks bleak. They'll need better engines and interiors in that car - at existing prices - to improve sales. The i20 beats it in interior quality hands down and coupled with Hyundai's good reputation, they rule the premuim hatchback segment.

With the B segment already crowded and more options becoming available as the year progresses, I hope a manufacturer throws in a googly with a well priced AT or diesel (diesel AT?) option. In the urban scenario I think it will have a lot of takers.
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Old 11th February 2010, 13:35   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
Bull's eye.
I think the average buyer in India has a higher image of a sedan status-wise than a hatchback. This would be a setback to a hatch which ventures into the price territory of the sedans. Premium hatchbacks are still struggling for a foothold here as brought out by the charts for Fabia, Jazz etc.
+1. The other day I mentioned to a colleague that my I20 Diesel cost 8.5 Lacs, to which he replied "Ek Choti gaadi ke liye itna paisa, aur ek lakh dalte to Innova aa jaati" [So much for such a small vehicle, if I had put another lakh I could have bought an Innova]. I did not say a word, for these people the cost of the vehicle is directly proportional to its size.
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:15   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbp
"Ek Choti gaadi ke liye itna paisa, aur ek lakh dalte to Innova aa jaati"
hehehe... Try as much as you like, but its very difficult to argue with that kind of logic!

Last edited by smartcat : 11th February 2010 at 15:32.
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Old 11th February 2010, 15:26   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbp View Post
+1. The other day I mentioned to a colleague that my I20 Diesel cost 8.5 Lacs, to which he replied "Ek Choti gaadi ke liye itna paisa, aur ek lakh dalte to Innova aa jaati" [So much for such a small vehicle, if I had put another lakh I could have bought an Innova]. I did not say a word, for these people the cost of the vehicle is directly proportional to its size.
Yes, for some, more space may be luxury. Luxury need not be always be features or rich interiors or comfort. It could vary from buyer to buyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Jazz might be expensive at Rs. 8.5 Lacs but the Jazz buyer will the one laughing all the way to the bank after 5 years when he sells it for Rs. 4 Lacs - the Honda reliability, image and resale value coming into the picture once again.
Hmmm, I disagree. Would many buyers spending 4 lakhs for a hatch buy a NEW hatch or a 5 year old second hand hatch? At the end of the day, both are hatches.
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Old 11th February 2010, 16:02   #70
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Originally Posted by harimakesh View Post
IMHO Punto is another typical 1.3 multi jet engined hatch with average fit and finish (read worth 4.25L for base and 5.5L with ABS airbags max) .

Just for PUNTO's mini maserati looks-exterior styling alone FIAT in India is asking big premium of 75K .

FIAT's poor self created customer distrust.

FIAT is not independant in A.S.S and back riding with TATA.

With all faults FIAT audaciously increased prices of PUNTO in 2010

On the other hand GM built customer trust in 2009 in full swing.

GM with its range of products hatches, sedans, MUV and SUV assuring Indian clients that GM is for Long run in India.

With new SPARK, BEAT, CRUZE launches and VFM pricing GM has built customer confidence several folds in 2009.

GM's 3 year warranty has convinced many to buy GM products.
SPARK sellingk 4K plus units vouches the Indian Mass customer support to GM.

Well managed performance by GM top Management

AFAIK the low sales of Punto has more to do with the Image of FIAT in the market rather than the product itself. The lack of real marketing initiatives either on the media front or at the showroom level do not help either. And people are still a bit circumspect to invest 6lacs on a hatchback, whether its good or not ( I am not going to comment on the quality of Punto as I haven't personally driven it). One may point out the success of Linea from the same company, but TATA doesn't have a product in that range yet

As far as GM is concerned I completely agree with you. They have put real effort to build confidence in public and it is starting to yield fruits. Maybe their insolvency in US has helped. Maybe FIAT needs such experience in INDIA. ( I know they were near bankrupt in European operations, before Punto revived them).
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Old 11th February 2010, 16:57   #71
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GTO & Vasudeva, thanks for the excellent report.

It was more educating to see the various kinds of responses on this thread, which itself becomes a rich analysis of the rport. That's the strength of Team-BHP.

Jazz is certainly overpriced. Period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Jazz might be expensive at Rs. 8.5 Lacs but the Jazz buyer will the one laughing all the way to the bank after 5 years when he sells it for Rs. 4 Lacs - the Honda reliability, image and resale value coming into the picture once again.
I don't think so. When there are no buyers for a brand new Jazz, how come we will have buyers shelling out more for a 2nd hand?

However I am not able to understand why Punto didn't do well. I do not see any major setbacks in this car.

It's good that cars like Manza with a VFM price tag (as agreed by most of the crowd), sell well and create records. This would certainly make others think about pricing their cars, right. Though it was launched pretty recently, I am able to see a lot many on the road, like it happened with Swift. However still I see a good amount of panel gaps (particularly the hood) and the design is a just like a boot attached to a hatchback. These two reasons, makes me think against the same, if I were a buyer.

It's not just Ford to learn from GM and Tata, but also Honda on the pricing front.
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:17   #72
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Punto sales are low because the car does not seem to have a USP.

Hyundai has a good chance of carrying the success into higher segments. A i30 based sedan could change the perception about Hyundai in that segment.

GM can do the same. The Aveo looks lost and something built like a Beat or Cruze might do the trick.
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:21   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Jazz might be expensive at Rs. 8.5 Lacs but the Jazz buyer will the one laughing all the way to the bank after 5 years when he sells it for Rs. 4 Lacs - the Honda reliability, image and resale value coming into the picture once again.

In an Autocar India interview, Honda India CEO had mentioned that Jazz is more expensive to manufacture than the new City - because the Jazz uses better materials and has better finish/shutlines than the City.
Used Jazz car buyer will be the one laughing his way to the bank. Not all Honda products have great resale. Honda City is the only exception. Civic, Accord depreciate quite heavily resulting in mouthwatering deals in used car market. Same will be the case with Jazz as market has outrightly rejected this high priced product. Only if Honda does something to reduce the prices, Jazz will most likely flop. Its another Fusion in the making.
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:21   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Jazz might be expensive at Rs. 8.5 Lacs but the Jazz buyer will the one laughing all the way to the bank after 5 years when he sells it for Rs. 4 Lacs - the Honda reliability, image and resale value coming into the picture once again.
Why dont you take into account the fact that you save more than 2 lakhs right at the outset when you buy any other hatch with comparable features? Some better appointed diesel hatches cost less which would mean you save on running costs as well.
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Old 11th February 2010, 17:23   #75
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Originally Posted by nickatnite View Post
FIAT should redesign the Punto interior if it wants to see a spurt in sales. One look at the dreary dash and there goes the sale out the showroom window.
I can vouch for this. I was keen on picking up the punto but one look at the dash in person, I did not even wait to take the test drive. Hope they work on it. The Auto show sports edition looked cool. I will consider punto again if that version is for sale
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