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Old 12th February 2010, 12:17   #91
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post

Actually, its completely the opposite. Sales stats over the past 12 months have demonstrated that the Indian buyer increasingly prefers a premium hatchback over an entry level sedan. The i20 is a case in point.
IMO, that's an incorrect statement. We often mislead ourselves by referring i20 and swift VDi as examples. Both are exceptions rather than rules. In case of i20, there is absolutely no alternative choice in entry sedan that has good interior. Same is true for Vdi case. So, i do not think you are right in this point.
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Old 12th February 2010, 13:29   #92
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Defending the small minority of Jazz buyers who went for it instead of i20, I would say that Jazz definitely looks better (subjective, I know) from the outside and inside. Just put some snazzy alloys (50k more, I know) and you will own the coolest hatchback in town at Rs. 9 Lacs. That's the price for exclusivity & feel good factor, which lots of car buyers cherish.

Won't try to defend Honda as a manufacturer though.

Meanwhile, 1.2 Asta(O) Hyundai i20 at Rs. 6.92 Lacs on road is VFM I agree, but 1.4 Crdi Asta(O) i20 at Rs. 8.5 Lacs on road is not! It might be a good buy, but its not a VFM buy. Rs. 1.6 Lacs for a diesel engine? Who is Hyundai kidding? I must have missed something - has Hyundai used Gold and other precious metals in making that engine?

Also, the price difference between Asta (O) version and Asta version in 1.2 petrol is Rs. 26,000. You get extra airbags and sunroof for this price. But the price difference between Asta (O) and Asta versions of 1.4 Crdi is Rs. 43,000.

Why the extra premium (15k), for the same features in both petrol & diesel?

Hyundai is a chor too.
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Old 12th February 2010, 13:39   #93
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Sales stats over the past 12 months have demonstrated that the Indian buyer increasingly prefers a premium hatchback over an entry level sedan. The i20 is a case in point. Even the Swift diesel Vdi, at an onroad price of 6 lakh rupees, is a pretty expensive hatch. Entry sedans like the Ikon, Indigo CS etc. are being overlooked by the market. The 6 lakh rupee hatch segment has grown / is growing much faster than the 6 lakh rupee sedan segment.
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Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
IMO, that's an incorrect statement. We often mislead ourselves by referring i20 and swift VDi as examples. Both are exceptions rather than rules. In case of i20, there is absolutely no alternative choice in entry sedan that has good interior. Same is true for Vdi case. So, i do not think you are right in this point.
Well, I was faced with this dilemma of hatch vs sedan at the similar price point (my options five years back were Getz, Sail, Ikon, Corsa). From a value for money perspective, IMO, a hatch offers much better value than a sedan. Entry level sedans compromise on comfort, space and features to bring down the price. Compared to this, the hatches offer better comfort, features and space.

For me, paying extra for that boot and getting less value in return, in case of a entry sedan, did not make sense. The premium hatch was offering but better value.
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Old 12th February 2010, 13:48   #94
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Meanwhile, 1.2 Asta(O) Hyundai i20 at Rs. 6.92 Lacs on road is VFM I agree, but 1.4 Crdi Asta(O) i20 at Rs. 8.5 Lacs on road is not! It might be a good buy, but its not a VFM buy. Rs. 1.6 Lacs for a diesel engine? Who is Hyundai kidding? I must have missed something - has Hyundai used Gold and other precious metals in making that engine?

Also, the price difference between Asta (O) version and Asta version in 1.2 petrol is Rs. 26,000. You get extra airbags and sunroof for this price. But the price difference between Asta (O) and Asta versions of 1.4 Crdi is Rs. 43,000.

Why the extra premium (15k), for the same features in both petrol & diesel?

Hyundai is a chor too.
Adding just alloy wheels do not make the Jazz and i20 equal. i20 has much more equipment (like 6 airbags, climate control, electrically adjustable OVRMs, fog lamps etc)

i20 Asta is 5.6L ex while Jazz base is 7.15 ex. Huge difference.

i20 CRDI Asta price is 6.8L ex, so diff is 1.2L, which is reasonable given that it is a diesel engine and the capacity is larger. VGT too, I guess.

There is a 37K difference between CRDI Asta and CRDI Asta(O) compared to 22K between 1.2 Asta and 1.2 Asta (O) because the diesel version Asta (O) comes with sunroof too. 15K is a good price to pay for a sunroof.

Last edited by civic-sense : 12th February 2010 at 13:59.
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Old 12th February 2010, 18:15   #95
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As far as I know, the 1.2 petrol Asta (O) also comes with a sunroof. They are charging 15k extra for the diesel version for really no reason.

But I'm not comparing Jazz with i20 feature to feature as such. I'm comparing i20 petrol with i20 diesel to show that Hyundai is overcharging for the diesel. Look at the price difference between petrol and diesel versions of Maruti, Fiat etc.

i20 feature list is brilliant - no contest. But Hyundai, like Honda, is guilty of overcharging their customers (for the diesel model only).

Last edited by smartcat : 12th February 2010 at 18:30.
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Old 13th February 2010, 07:40   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
As far as I know, the 1.2 petrol Asta (O) also comes with a sunroof. They are charging 15k extra for the diesel version for really no reason.

But I'm not comparing Jazz with i20 feature to feature as such. I'm comparing i20 petrol with i20 diesel to show that Hyundai is overcharging for the diesel. Look at the price difference between petrol and diesel versions of Maruti, Fiat etc.

i20 feature list is brilliant - no contest. But Hyundai, like Honda, is guilty of overcharging their customers (for the diesel model only).
Yes, there is Sunroof option in i20 Asta as well. Apologies for the miss.

But check this link:

Welcome to Hyundai Motors India Limited


i20 Asta 560998
i20 Asta Option With Sunroof 597997
Diff - 36999

i20 1.4 Asta Diesel 684201
i20 1.4 Asta (O) Diesel With Sunroof 721197
Diff - 36996

So where is Hyundai overcharging for diesel??

i20 Asta Option With Sunroof 597997
i20 1.4 Asta (O) Diesel With Sunroof 721197

Difference : 123200L

The price difference between the Ritz LXI and the LDI is 80K. The 80K premium is for an engine with 100cc more capacity and no VGT.

Similar 80K difference in price exists between Punto 1.2 active and Punto 1.3 Active.

Isn't a 40K premium for the increased capacity and VGT justified? We pay 30K for a Petes tuning box.

Last edited by civic-sense : 13th February 2010 at 07:50.
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Old 13th February 2010, 08:02   #97
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Me thinks Tata wouldn't celebrate being No. 2. If you ask me, the only number that's worth celebrating is No.1
Not to take anything away from Tata, but it is the large volumes of commercial taxi market sales that gets them to the number 2 slot. I am not sure these numbers are available, but if one were to take these out of the equation, I think we would see Tata trailing a longer way behind.The other issue that this huge bias in the sales mix brings is that service set ups get flooded with these volumes, to the detriment of the treatment to private buyers, currently including Fiat customers too. Because the nature of the service experience that may satisfy the taxi trade will leave the private user buyer stressed. GM is facing some of this with the Tavera sales success, hopefully they will deal with this a lot better.
After seeing the Punto at its launch I had raised the unpopular question ( on this site ) of the Fiat future, given their past performances, the packaging design/ build quality of the product, and the continuing reliance on Tata for service. I guess the story of the Punto sales graph speaks for itself. And with the Beat, Figo and the soon to come Polo as new market entrants, who is going to lose the most share to these cars in the months to come? While Maruti and Hyundai will do so, I expect Fiat to be the most affected, having perhaps squandered their lead in getting to market first. I don't know when the Polo sedan is to be introduced, that will give the Linea a hard time. It looks to me that Fiat owners will remain members of an exclusive club, which probably they are happy to. But I am not sure where that leaves Fiat India, other than as a powertrain supplier.
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Old 13th February 2010, 11:13   #98
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civic-sense,

My numbers are taken from Autocar India - I guess there could've been a printing mistake.
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Old 13th February 2010, 13:28   #99
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Excellent report. Pretty expected to see the Honda Jazz not faring well. It's a lovely car, I can justify the pricing even! But the Indian market is not the Jazz's market.
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Old 13th February 2010, 16:22   #100
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Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
After seeing the Punto at its launch I had raised the unpopular question ( on this site ) of the Fiat future, given their past performances, the packaging design/ build quality of the product, and the continuing reliance on Tata for service. I guess the story of the Punto sales graph speaks for itself. And with the Beat, Figo and the soon to come Polo as new market entrants, who is going to lose the most share to these cars in the months to come? While Maruti and Hyundai will do so, I expect Fiat to be the most affected, having perhaps squandered their lead in getting to market first. I don't know when the Polo sedan is to be introduced, that will give the Linea a hard time. It looks to me that Fiat owners will remain members of an exclusive club, which probably they are happy to. But I am not sure where that leaves Fiat India, other than as a powertrain supplier.
- Reliance on Tata for service is the reason Fiat is doing 2K/month.

- When you say Fiat will be most affected due to competition you are assuming that Fiat will do nothing to fight back and hold / regain / expand their market share. Fiat is actually in a better postion then new comers as they can now pace the launch of new variants to counter new launches from other manufacturer's.

- When VW Polo 1.2 Petrol is launched, Fiat can bring in the Punto Trendz.

- VW Polo 1.2 3 cylinder diesel get's launched, Fiat can launch the 1.3 MJD VGT 90bhp Punto.

- When Polo 1.6 petrol comes, Fiat can launch the Punto TJet.

- Since new Fiesta and Polo sedan are long way's off, they should get the Linea Tjet 110bhp in asap.

- When new Fiesta will be launched in Q1 2011, Fiat can launch the Linea 1.6 MJD FGT 105bhp varaint.

- When Polo sedan 1.2 TSi is launched, they can upgrade Linea Tjet to 120bhp and offer a duologic transmision. Diesel can also get duologic.

- When Etios comes, Punto petrol can get CNG power.

- Against Etios sedan diesel, Fiat can upgrade Linea 1.6 to VGT with 120bhp.

- In 2012, Fiat can get Punto Evo with multiair and 1.6 VGT 120bhp diesel motors. Duologic can finally make it to the Punto also.

The only reason I see Polo beating Punto is due to the VW badge. No matter how much of refinement you pack into a 3 cylinder engine, it cannot beat a 4 cylinder engine as the 4 banger is inherently a better unit. Besides, I don't understand why I should pay similar amount of money for a 3 cylinder diesel with lesser features (No ACC in Polo from the info we have now) when I can buy a Punto / i20 with a 4 cylinder engine with more useable features.
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Old 13th February 2010, 17:11   #101
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The only reason I see Polo beating Punto is due to the VW badge. No matter how much of refinement you pack into a 3 cylinder engine, it cannot beat a 4 cylinder engine as the 4 banger is inherently a better unit. Besides, I don't understand why I should pay similar amount of money for a 3 cylinder diesel with lesser features (No ACC in Polo from the info we have now) when I can buy a Punto / i20 with a 4 cylinder engine with more useable features.
I'd say that most people that buy a car to allow it to sell in large numbers in India would only look to the things that matter - reasonable performance,fuss free reliability, quality service, economy, feel good intangibles, interior and boot space and not lose much sleep over how many cylinders the engine has. Also, for the VW badge what one gets globally is a well screwed together car with quality interiors, and I suspect that the Germans will make sure that they hew to these standards in the Indian Polo as well. From a customer point of view, things could not be better in terms of having a choice of well made smallish cars that are best suited to the local environment. And the fiercer the competitive pressures, the better the customer outcome. The brilliantly built i 20, as an example.
The sales trends of each brand will continue to tell the results of car wars!
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Old 13th February 2010, 17:39   #102
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And a PS to the post above- what will be key is the service that VW is able to provide at the volumes the Polo is planned to sell at. This is where Maruti and Hyundai score in the volume markets, with GMI catching up on the service quality these days. All three makes provide quality and economical service. That is why their brands are trusted, with GMI making large strides in the direction of earning that trust.
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Old 13th February 2010, 18:09   #103
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Quite an interesting read. Excellent work GTO and Vasudeva!

Good to see the Tata sedans doing well. It looks like they finally have got the hang of it.

And what can I say about Maruti, they seem to be holding their position even in the face of stiff competition.

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
I must have missed something - has Hyundai used Gold and other precious metals in making that engine?

Why the extra premium (15k), for the same features in both petrol & diesel?

Hyundai is a chor too.
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
i20 feature list is brilliant - no contest. But Hyundai, like Honda, is guilty of overcharging their customers (for the diesel model only).
I think the above query would suit the Honda Jazz better because snazzy looks alone do not justify such a premium and for that matter even i20, Punto etc also look brilliant.

The reasoning that price premium on Jazz is justified even though it doesn't have any equipment or a diesel engine because it would look cool snazzy flashy trendy upmarket and exclusive if you spend another 50k and put alloys(what the ???), but Hyundai is chor even though they give end less list of equipment, diesel engine and a good looking hatch, is simply indigestible!
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Old 13th February 2010, 23:28   #104
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Originally Posted by UKR View Post

The reasoning that price premium on Jazz is justified even though it doesn't have any equipment or a diesel engine because it would look cool snazzy flashy trendy upmarket and exclusive if you spend another 50k and put alloys(what the ???), but Hyundai is chor even though they give end less list of equipment, diesel engine and a good looking hatch, is simply indigestible!
Do not understand your rationale, looks in bad taste.
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Old 14th February 2010, 00:58   #105
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Guys,

any numbers from Tata pick up truck Xenon which was launched last year.
I am yet to see one on road!
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