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Old 16th February 2010, 16:44   #121
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Originally Posted by sbraj View Post
Looks like Honda is responding to the Jazz debacle. See the below thread, and associated link.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...-research.html
I do not know why Honda doesnt accept at least that they have not met the sales targets for Jazz even if they do not want to accept that Jazz is a market failure.
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Old 16th February 2010, 17:54   #122
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No I was not joking. I agree that the engine's are adequate for Indian driving conditions (Punto in EU gets a 77bhp petrol!) but that fact is that Fiat will have to constantly refresh and upgrade their products as per competition to ensure they are alive and kicking in prospective buyer's minds.
Don't think any of these "tricks" will work for FIAT. They first have to make their choice. Of what they want to be known for. As a mass market car manufacturer? Or a premium car manufacturer?

If it is the former, then the Punto (and to some extend, the Linea) does not fit into their scheme. If you want to target the mass market, you need to bring cheap, fuel efficient cars like the i10, Beat, Santro, WagonR etc. Bring in the Panda.

On the other hand, if they want to be a premium car manufacturer like Honda, (which I think what FIAT should have done in the first place) they should have given the Punto and the Linea some quality interiors, better build quality (am talking about the rusting issues here), bigger engines, and should have sold the cars at a higher margin.

In the current scheme of things, FIAT seems to be, well... confused.

Last edited by civic-sense : 16th February 2010 at 17:56.
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Old 16th February 2010, 21:27   #123
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[quote=Sawyer;1730311]Not to take anything away from Tata, but it is the large volumes of commercial taxi market sales that gets them to the number 2 slot. I am not sure these numbers are available, but if one were to take these out of the equation, I think we would see Tata trailing a longer way behind.




Sawyer: Vista and Manza are not sold as Taxi's. There are very few Vista's manza's spotted as taxi's.
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:12   #124
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With the new Indica Vista Aura ABS and Aura +, I presume we can slowly and steadily expect an increase in TATA sales by around 500-700 a month after 3-4 months after the sales settle down. One thing is certain, Maruti and Hyundai wont be able to keep blowing the A** trumpet for ever. They have to re think and re position their products and prices.

Last edited by MihirC : 17th February 2010 at 12:26.
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Old 17th February 2010, 12:32   #125
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[quote=airbender;1736219]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Not to take anything away from Tata, but it is the large volumes of commercial taxi market sales that gets them to the number 2 slot. I am not sure these numbers are available, but if one were to take these out of the equation, I think we would see Tata trailing a longer way behind.




Sawyer: Vista and Manza are not sold as Taxi's. There are very few Vista's manza's spotted as taxi's.
The point I was making was that a large number of the Tata sales are into the taxi market. And I am not sure that the split is known, but if it is, it would probably disclose the Tata share in the private market that would be more revealing of their true worth, and a lot lower than number 2. It is not the Vistas and the Manzas that are the reason for the number 2 slot, it is the Indicas, Sumos and others of the ilk. Even today, if I was to buy a new car, it would not be a Tata. The cars are not competitive enough in fit/finish/reliability. Sure they have made a lot of progress, but as a buyer spending my money on a car that I would drive/maintain, all I would look to is what else is currently available that is better for the price. And I suggest that a large number of folk still feel that same way, which is what this analysis would confirm, if available.
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Old 17th February 2010, 14:16   #126
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[quote=Sawyer;1737095]
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
The point I was making was that a large number of the Tata sales are into the taxi market.
The taxi market looks for cars that have space, comfort & cheap running costs more than anything else. This happens to be the USP of most if not all Tata cars. Last on their list comes 'handling' and the 'fun to drive' nature of the car. At the end of the day, Tata Motors is a business unit and how many $$$ come in matters most. So if the taxi market buys their cars or individuals buy their cars the $$$ will keep coming in. Private buyers whose priorities are the same order as mentioned above will also look at Tata cars. With the manza Tata has upped overall quality and it is now on par or better than its competition. The upcoming aria will be a real quality test for Tata
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Old 17th February 2010, 22:52   #127
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[quote=Sawyer;1737095]
The point I was making was that a large number of the Tata sales are into the taxi market.

Sawyer: That's only your assumption. You may be right or wrong.
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Old 18th February 2010, 08:32   #128
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[quote=airbender;1738429]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
The point I was making was that a large number of the Tata sales are into the taxi market.

Sawyer: That's only your assumption. You may be right or wrong.
Do you think that Tata does not sell in large numbers to the taxi trade?!
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Old 18th February 2010, 08:59   #129
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Utility Vehicles:

What Maruti is to the hatchback segment, Mahindra is to Utility. No one touches M&M in semi-urban and rural India. Proof? A massive 14,425 UVs sold last month. While the Scorpio & Xylo may be relatively newer products, the Bolero is still the best seller by a mile.

The Omni may be painfully old and basic, yet the Van brings the moolah home. Alongwith the Versa / Eeco, Marutiís sales tally in the UV segment is 10,923. Third spot goes to Tata who managed 3717 UVs (Sumo, Safari and Winger). The cheap but rugger ACE Magic is Tataís best seller with 4,657 UVs moved. Tata really lost focus of its hold over the UV segment, thanks to the development of its passenger car division (Nano, Manza, Vista).
.
8374 UVs by Tata is only bound to increase. With the launch of the Magic Iris and Tata Venture slated for this year (?), I think Tata will get sales up and running higher than ever. Not to mention the Aria coming in.

Kudos to their efforts.

This was a double post. Couldn't delete it so changing information. Can mods please merge the two post?

The A segment ruled by the 800 is soon to be overtaken by the Nano.
The B segment will always be Maruti's stronghold with the number of models to choose from.
The C segment will have the Manza competing strongly with the Dzire, if not overtaking it shortly.
The UV segment will also see Tata as a fierce competitor to Mahindra in the coming months after the 3 vehicles mentioned above are launched.

3 good performances out of 4 is not a bad thing for Tata.

Failures I can think of:
Sumo Grande. At about a lakh cheaper, it would probably move out of the stable. Better still, remove the older Sumo, give variants of the Grande for all markets.
Version 1: AC without PS, white with black bumpers (taxi market).
#2: AC, PS (taxi, semi-urban)
#3: AC, PS, Music System, ABS (urban)
#4: AC, PS, Music System, ABS, Airbags.

Last edited by Technocrat : 18th February 2010 at 20:39.
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Old 18th February 2010, 09:09   #130
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It have noticed the number of questions asked are always on the higher side when a little credit is given to Tata. Talking about Tata's in the taxi market. I'm sure 30% if not more of Innova sales are from the taxi market but nobody complains..!
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Old 18th February 2010, 09:59   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawyer View Post
Not to take anything away from Tata, but it is the large volumes of commercial taxi market sales that gets them to the number 2 slot. I am not sure these numbers are available, but if one were to take these out of the equation, I think we would see Tata trailing a longer way behind.The other issue that this huge bias in the sales mix brings is that service set ups get flooded with these volumes, to the detriment of the treatment to private buyers, currently including Fiat customers too. Because the nature of the service experience that may satisfy the taxi trade will leave the private user buyer stressed.
Sawyer in most countried abroad the most commonly seen taxi hails from the No1 brand. Taxi drivers/ commercial vehicle drivers need cheap to maintain & Reliable equipment that can take on the rigours of the maximium number of kms piled on in the shortest period possible.

Toyota tends to be the band of choice in most countries globally except in some european countries like germany where the mercedes has this position.

We tend to associate taxi's with the Ambys and Premier Padminis but frankly there is no reason for the taxi to be of any different a brand as compared to the highest selling brand in the country.

TATA inspite of this has actually gone with this popular notion and not released the vista and Manza to the Taxi market so the recent spurt in sales has been mainly spurred by the new vehicles that they have sold to the private buyers.

The service too for Toyota for example has not suffered in global countries like Thailand or Singapore or UAE or for that matter in the US on account of servicing taxi drivers.

So the short of the long would be that this is not a cause of concern at all, and slowly even India will awake to the fact that the most reliable and cheap to maintain vehicles (not necessarily cheap vehicles itself) are of the brand with the highest sales in the country.
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Old 18th February 2010, 11:01   #132
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Hi,

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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
TATA inspite of this has actually gone with this popular notion and not released the vista and Manza to the Taxi market so the recent spurt in sales has been mainly spurred by the new vehicles that they have sold to the private buyers.
I have no issues with my make and model running as a taxi, in fact, that is a credit for the usability of the car!

I am yet to see a Manza with a yellow board, but Vistas are quite a few around here with yellow plates.
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Old 18th February 2010, 19:36   #133
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
...5.5 lakh rupees can get you a modern hatchback with more amenities (including ABS). A 5.5 lakh sedan like the Ikon or Logan are outdated and will only offer you a base trim variant for the money. The market is clearly showing its preference for a contemporary product with more amenities over a boot.
True that the bestselling big hatchbacks outsell entry level sedans. But are i20 and Swift premium hatches, given their competitive prices (as compared to Jazz and Fabia)? I didn't think they were premium, correct me if wrong.
The issue is that hatches that are priced around or well above bestselling mid sized sedans like DZire and Manza would suffer in sales.
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Old 18th February 2010, 20:04   #134
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But are i20 and Swift premium hatches, given their competitive prices (as compared to Jazz and Fabia)? I didn't think they were premium, correct me if wrong.
In India, 5L+ for a hatchback does make people wonder why they're buying a "premium" hatchback. The Jazz is just overpriced, nothing else to it.
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Old 19th February 2010, 11:46   #135
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Originally Posted by amit View Post
but that fact is that Fiat will have to constantly refresh and upgrade their products as per competition to ensure they are alive and kicking in prospective buyer's minds.
99% of our market wants an engine that is fuel-efficient & has adequate power. And the 1.3 MJD does just that.

It takes effort and scale to launch multiple engine options & variants. Fiat has neither at the moment. I'm not sure I agree with merely upsizing / downsizing engine size / power to compete with newer competition. Our market really isn't mature enough, where buying decisions are made on engine size alone. If it was, Maruti would sell the Swift with engine capacities varying from 800 cc to 1500 cc and cover the entire B segment. One product fit all (with varying engine capacities) simply does NOT work in India. The best sellers have either one engine in total, or one engine for petrol and diesel each. Thats it.

Fiat has limited resources at the moment and its best that they continue to support the Linea & Punto via efforts on reconstructing the brand, after-sales, fit & finish, getting rid of niggling issues and bring up overall quality.

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Originally Posted by gupta_chd View Post
I do not know why Honda doesnt accept at least that they have not met the sales targets for Jazz even if they do not want to accept that Jazz is a market failure.
Sure they do! Honda has publicly admitted to the Jazz guffaw in the past.

Quote:
Originally Posted by discoverwild View Post
The A segment ruled by the 800 is soon to be overtaken by the Nano.
The B segment will always be Maruti's stronghold with the number of models to choose from.
The C segment will have the Manza competing strongly with the Dzire, if not overtaking it shortly.
The UV segment will also see Tata as a fierce competitor to Mahindra in the coming months after the 3 vehicles mentioned above are launched.
Excellent synopsis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta Wing View Post
But are i20 and Swift premium hatches, given their competitive prices (as compared to Jazz and Fabia)? I didn't think they were premium, correct me if wrong.
The top loaded Swift goes nearly to 6 lakhs on the road, while some variants of the i20 cross 7 lakhs! How much more premium do you want?

Last edited by GTO : 19th February 2010 at 11:47.
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