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Old 8th March 2010, 20:50   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitronium View Post
What I have read is 5 pages of Jazz bashing. I strongly disagree.

Let me tell you what happened to us.

We had pretty much decided on a City before walking into the showroom. A spin in the Jazz however changed everything.

1) Why did we need an insanely powerful engine when 95% of it's usage was to be in the city?

2) Why settle for the far less roomy interiors when you can have the cavern the Jazz can give you?

3) Why a cumbersome sedan when you can get a compact hatch?

4) Why settle for less fuel economy?

The Jazz somehow made a strong case for itself, and at no point did i feel that it was underpowered. Folks in posts above ranted on about how they wanted a 1.5ltr. Yes, we WISH we had a lot of things. More powerful engines top that list. But the truth is that the Indian Public is NOT very receptive to paying MORE for MORE.

Consider this. Even with a 1.5 engine, not many people would buy the Jazz because it doesn't have a boot. A sedan pretty much means you've made it in life. (humour to be duly noted)

We reckoned the nearest competitors were the i20 and the Punto. We sat inside the showroom car and saw a bit of poorly finished plastic. That decided it. We weren't going to pay for shoddy interiors.
Unfortunate, considering my heart ached for one so badly.

The i20 was a big let down. 7 airbags, check. Nicely coloured seats, check. Everything else, fail. (this was pre CRDI launch). The steering was devoid of life (ala Verna) and the interiors space was rubbish considering the dimensions of the car. (Nicely weighted buttons though). To top things off, a 7+lac Rupee price tag for a top of the line variant.

The Jazz ticked every check box. Sure, 50000/- lesser would have been pleasant. But we had no grouse paying hard earned money for a racy engine, massive interior space and wonderful quality of interiors.


EDIT
P.S. After reading GTO's review, I do believe the only thing premium about the Polo is the badge.

Cheers.
Couldn't agree more. I would not have been able to put it as nicely as you did. I do feel Jazz is an excellent product - priced higher or not. IMO there is NO other hatch in India, as classy as it is. Period. Let's come back to this topic in a year or two from now, when the Indian car/hatch market will be a lot more mature. Jazz sure will be doing a lot better then.
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Old 8th March 2010, 21:56   #77
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Jazz has a price 'correction'. For the special edition.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...tion-jazz.html (Honda Launches Special Edition Jazz)

Special edition costs 10K more. With some extra features.
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Old 9th March 2010, 00:36   #78
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Ok, Honda goofed up with the pricing of Jazz. But didn't many of us here on T-BHP predict that it will be a success because it is a Honda? Also, many 'blamed' the Indian car buying public for putting blind trust on brand names like Honda. I think, the Jazz failure has shown that the indian car buying people are very intelligent, and they know exactly where to put their extra moneys on. This also shows that the City is rightly priced and not over-charged as some of us would like to believe.
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Old 9th March 2010, 16:43   #79
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From another thread
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/newrep...eply&p=1773098
Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
*Sigh*, just what Honda needed. A Jazz that costs MORE than the already overpriced variant.

C'mon, admit your mistake, correct the price and move on. Leave these special ed's to the Americans. They offer small short term gains, but in the long term, they rarely work out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPARKled View Post
I for one am glad that the Jazz is not doing well. No where in the world is Honda a premium badge and its only in countries like India that they are able to get away by selling cars like the City which is not really that much better than the competition to command such a premium. Though its not that bad a deal as compared to the Jazz. God only what would have been the sticker price of the Civic had the Corolla not been there. The failure of the Jazz clearly indicates that the Indian market is maturing.
Will Honda never understand/understood Indian market despite market leader in petrol Sedan category ?
Is it that "City" success is merely a fluke, in the sense other manufacturers didn't respond properly to exit of likes - Esteem. Baleno,and aging of Ford Fiesta etc

cheers
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Old 9th March 2010, 17:30   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitronium
What I have read is 5 pages of Jazz bashing. I strongly disagree.
I don't think anyone is bashing the car here. Infact general opinion is that the Jazz is a pretty good car among its peers.

If at all someone is being bashed on this thread, it is the guys at Honda who priced the car wrongly (assuming Indians would still lap it up due to the H badge), resulting in a good car not getting its due in the market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
Not every auto manufacturer would want to become a volume player like Maruti.
Not wanting is quite different from not being able to. The interest in the small car market in India shown by most manufacturers is indication of what they think of getting a piece of the volume market. And Honda is no exception. If you think they are some exclusive car-maker, playing a niche market, you are wrong. I have seen ACE-like small-trucks in Japan from Honda - how exclusive can you get with that ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
True, it is not restricted to auto-manufacturers alone. But your last statement contradicts it. There is no reason it (premium pricing) should be restricted to luxury sedans alone.
No contradiction anywhere. I know that MB or BMW would, in the interest of image/exclusivity not want to be a volume player. But Honda ? Hey common, Honda makes good cars (like most other Jap manufacturers), but let us not put a halo around them or raise them to ridiculous levels. They have half or more the volume of the C-segment sedan, but when it comes to the hatch, Honda don't want to do volumes. Nice logic. Ain't it more like a case of sour grapes?
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Old 9th March 2010, 17:39   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanagg1 View Post
Will Honda never understand/understood Indian market despite market leader in petrol Sedan category ?
Is it that "City" success is merely a fluke, in the sense other manufacturers didn't respond properly to exit of likes - Esteem. Baleno,and aging of Ford Fiesta etc
Honda is not the only manufacturer fleecing customers.

I read elsewhere that price difference between Innova and Fortuner is 2-3 lakhs in other markets. But how come the price difference is a whopping 9 lakhs in India? Due to the competition. When CRV is priced at 25 Lakhs, Fortuner can get away with it.

At the end of the day, it is about making money. And how one's product is priced vis-a-vis competition.
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Old 9th March 2010, 19:54   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
I don't think anyone is bashing the car here. Infact general opinion is that the Jazz is a pretty good car among its peers.
I disagree. Except for the interior space, the Jazz has nothing to boast of. If with that price, if they are still able to sell 250 cars a month, it is only because of the "H" badge. If it had a "FIAT" badge, they wouldn't have even sold 50.
Quote:
If at all someone is being bashed on this thread, it is the guys at Honda who priced the car wrongly (assuming Indians would still lap it up due to the H badge), resulting in a good car not getting its due in the market.
I agree that they have overpriced it. And I am sure that 250 cars per month was definitely not their target. They would have had a target of at least 1000 cars per month. But I don't agree to the logic that you have to be a volume player to be tagged successful.
Quote:
Not wanting is quite different from not being able to. The interest in the small car market in India shown by most manufacturers is indication of what they think of getting a piece of the volume market. And Honda is no exception. If you think they are some exclusive car-maker, playing a niche market, you are wrong. I have seen ACE-like small-trucks in Japan from Honda - how exclusive can you get with that ?
It is clear from their pricing strategy that they are not planning to become a volume player, and it is good for them that they are not. Company strategies need not be same for all countries. I am not sure about Japan, but in India the "H" badge has strong brand value, which they would lose if they try to compete with Maruti/Hyundai/Tata.
Quote:
No contradiction anywhere.
Read again. If the theory applies to any sector/product, then it applies to all segments of the auto industry too, not just the Mercs and BMWs.
Quote:
I know that MB or BMW would, in the interest of image/exclusivity not want to be a volume player. But Honda ? Hey common, Honda makes good cars (like most other Jap manufacturers), but let us not put a halo around them or raise them to ridiculous levels.
Don't agree, Honda makes good engines but average cars. But they do have a brand value. I alone cannot confer it, and you alone cannot take it away, how much ever we debate.
Quote:
They have half or more the volume of the C-segment sedan, but when it comes to the hatch, Honda don't want to do volumes. Nice logic. Ain't it more like a case of sour grapes?
I don't think Honda ever imagined the ANHC to sell so much. When the ANHC was launched everybody cried foul saying that it is overpriced. What the heck, they even hiked the price twice. But at the end it sold well, primarily because it had brand value (both 'Honda' and 'City' brands), and secondarily because it had a boot. Honda did the same thing with the Jazz. They priced it high, but this time the customers did not favour it because it didn't have a boot. Didn't ANHC sales increase rapidly after the Jazz was launched? People went to the showrooms to look at the Jazz and ended up buying the City.

Last edited by civic-sense : 9th March 2010 at 19:57.
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Old 9th March 2010, 20:29   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I'm going to have to correct you there. 500 - 600 cars for the Civic (segment position no.2 / 3) and 200 for the Accord (segment position no.2) is NOT languishing. Sure, they aren't the segment leaders anymore. But is success equated to only the segment leaders? Considering that there are only 5 passenger car segments in all, by that ballpark, all the other 75 cars on sale are languishing. Lets not make ridiculous comments here. The Accord has maintained its average sales of 200 - 250, before and after the Superbs launch.
Well, Civic isnt doing too well, considering that it is 3rd in a market of only 3 or 4 players (Civic, Corolla, Cruze, Laura?)....

Accord is also doing badly considering it is doing last 2nd in a market segment with only 2 players (Superb, Accord ----- not counting Camry since it is priced much higher).

CRV is also 3rd (or 4th?) in its segment comprising 4 cars (Fortuner, Endeavour, Captiva, CRV).

So, this is how it looks -- Civic, Accord, CRV and Jazz are at the BOTTOM of their market segments (please note the emphasis on the word BOTTOM)

City is on the top of its market segment.

But one top performing car + 4 bottom performing cars doesnt make a company a successful (or desirable) one.

And then how many City owners over-pay for the car itself? I tend to believe (knowing many City owners) that they pay for the social status that comes with owning the car.

So, what is my point here? Well, people are willing to pay atrocious amounts for City, because it brings social status (social prestige) along with it. But they wouldnt pay one extra penny for Jazz, because a hatchback doesnt bring social prestige, no matter how much you pay for it (or what marquee it is).

My 2 cents --- after trying to understand the market psychology of Indian car customers.
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Old 9th March 2010, 21:16   #84
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Premium for Jaaz is for the brand , quality and reliability,
Punto's and Figos are ordinary cars {which should not be compared} offer VFM when compared to Jaaz,
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:20   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I disagree. Except for the interior space, the Jazz has nothing to boast of.
I can only assume you've never driven/ sat in one to arrive at such a statement. The Jazz has every other hatchback nailed in most areas that you can list out, save, pricing.

I'll give chassis balance to the Punto though.
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:50   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabiaous View Post
Premium for Jaaz is for the brand , quality and reliability,
Punto's and Figos are ordinary cars {which should not be compared} offer VFM when compared to Jaaz,
Think again!

many Jazz or Fit are recalled all over last three years due to some manufacturing defects in airbags or electrical switches etc.

It is no denying that Honda makes good cars, but their pricing departments are not right. remember how much the civic hybrid was priced in the beginning. And there were morons who actually bought them at that price.

Honda did later refunded the money when they launched the same model about 7-8 lacs cheaper.

Last edited by SirAlec : 9th March 2010 at 23:53.
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:52   #87
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I don't understand all the fuzz about a damp squib called Jazz. Time to bury this car and move on. Road to successville is littered with carcasses of many such cars which just fell by the wayside. Remember Getz, Fabia, Fusion? Also, forget all other things... doesn't Jazz look horrendously ugly? Swift is for nephews and Jazz for uncles. And middle-aged, pot-bellied balding uncles who need all the space a car can provide for their paunch. Even a 30 year old driving a Jazz looks like a 50 year old. That is the "beauty" of the Jazz.
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Old 9th March 2010, 23:55   #88
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i guess jazz has got something that appeals to the heart when you drive it. (except the price, of course)
a few more features such as height adjustile seat, USB support wudnt have been welcome though.
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Old 10th March 2010, 00:38   #89
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come on guys give the poor car a breather.
i just bought the jazz a month back and i got it at an on road price of 6.90lacs and i really feel satisfied with the premium that i paid for it over the i20 petrol asta(o) model,
i got the jazz with a discount of rs.50000 and thats one big reason i went for it.
this was the first car i had struck off my list as it was too expensive but with the discount the car suddenly made sense,
i test drove both the i20 1.2 petrol and the jazz and the jazz does better out the competition in every department, agreed it lacks few vital features which at this price are a glaring omission but it does make it up with the superb packaging and practicality this car offers.
i have been getting a regular 16+ km/l in the city and it feels just effortless to drive be it in the city or on the highway, the refinement and the peace of mind that comes with the honda badge are worth some extra premium though not really as much as the company demands,
drive one and you will surely come out pleased and surprised by the comfort and space that not many hatchbacks can provide.
all that said this is one car you buy more with your heart than with your brain.
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Old 10th March 2010, 09:28   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
Except for the interior space, the Jazz has nothing to boast of.
Really ? I thought you said Honda made 'great' engines. So that is one thing. What about looks ? I like how it looks and IMO among its peers, it would rate at the top (maybe below a black i20). What about FE ? Should be better than other hatches, I would think. So, I have 4 reasons for me to go for it, if priced at 6.5L. I dont think owning a Honda is a status symbol, so that is not reason enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
I agree that they have overpriced it. And I am sure that 250 cars per month was definitely not their target. They would have had a target of at least 1000 cars per month.
So basically you agree that they overpriced it and did not meet the target. That's what most of us are saying here anyway. And given that you agree they did not meet their targets, all that talk about premium pricing and not-wanting-to-do-volumes is well, just talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
in India the "H" badge has strong brand value, which they would lose if they try to compete with Maruti/Hyundai/Tata.
Pre-Jazz, you would have people say that Honda would lose brand value if they ventured anywhere below C-segment. But they did come down to the hatch level. I wont be suprised if they come still further down to where the volume is - in the future. Let's revisit this thread a few years down the line and we would know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense
Read again. If the theory applies to any sector/product, then it applies to all segments of the auto industry too, not just the Mercs and BMWs.
I said it applies across sectors, not each and every product/segment in every sector. What is premium anyway, if something applies to all & sundry ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlec
remember how much the civic hybrid was priced in the beginning. And there were morons who actually bought them at that price.
While the hybrid was priced wrongly, I would not call the buyers morons. Atleast not all of them, because I would think atleast few of them would have had environment-friendliness as a factor for going for that car, which I believe should be lauded. You paid a little extra for a car, no big deal because you can always make money, but you can't make crude-oil.
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