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Old 10th March 2010, 10:20   #91
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
doesn't Jazz look horrendously ugly? Swift is for nephews and Jazz for uncles. And middle-aged, pot-bellied balding uncles who need all the space a car can provide for their paunch. Even a 30 year old driving a Jazz looks like a 50 year old. That is the "beauty" of the Jazz.
Looks are highly subjective. I see lots of 'nephews' driving Dzire and Ritz.

Coming back to the thread topic, if Jazz is priced on par with i20, I am sure, Jazz is going to give i20 a run for its money. IMO, Jazz is good looking. And as I said above, looks are not the only criteria that matters in a car purchase. Had that been the case, Dzire and Ritz wouldn't have sold in those many numbers.

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Originally Posted by superboy44 View Post
come on guys give the poor car a breather.
i just bought the jazz a month back and i got it at an on road price of 6.90lacs and i really feel satisfied with the premium that i paid for it over the i20 petrol asta(o) model,
i got the jazz with a discount of rs.50000 and thats one big reason i went for it.
this was the first car i had struck off my list as it was too expensive but with the discount the car suddenly made sense,
i test drove both the i20 1.2 petrol and the jazz and the jazz does better out the competition in every department, agreed it lacks few vital features which at this price are a glaring omission but it does make it up with the superb packaging and practicality this car offers.
Exactly what I am saying. It is the individual buyer's choice. At the moment very few are opting for Jazz due to its price. If Honda is brave enough to admit this and lower the price, I am sure the story is going to be different.
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Old 10th March 2010, 12:10   #92
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I don't think Honda ever imagined the ANHC to sell so much. When the ANHC was launched everybody cried foul saying that it is overpriced. What the heck, they even hiked the price twice. But at the end it sold well, primarily because it had brand value (both 'Honda' and 'City' brands), and secondarily because it had a boot. Honda did the same thing with the Jazz. They priced it high, but this time the customers did not favour it because it didn't have a boot. Didn't ANHC sales increase rapidly after the Jazz was launched? People went to the showrooms to look at the Jazz and ended up buying the City.
I don't really think Honda has as much brand value as you claim. If it was the case, then CRV, Civic, Jazz and Accord would not be at the bottom of their respective market segments
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Old 10th March 2010, 12:23   #93
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Coming back to the thread topic, if Jazz is priced on par with i20, I am sure, Jazz is going to give i20 a run for its money. IMO, Jazz is good looking. And as I said above, looks are not the only criteria that matters in a car purchase. Had that been the case, Dzire and Ritz wouldn't have sold in those many numbers.

No reason to believe that this would happen.

If you look at it ---> CRV, Civic and Accord are priced competitively vis-a-vis their respective competitors. But they are still at the bottom of their market segments (despite being Honda products!).

To say that buyers would immediately shift from i20 to Jazz, the moment Jazz's prices are reduced ----> is merely giving too much credit to Honda/Jazz and too little credit to Hyundai/i20. It reeks of fanboyish thinking, doesnt it?
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Old 10th March 2010, 12:51   #94
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Only one thing can save Jazz in India - convert it into a sedan under 4m length with 1.2L engine, and price it in the range 6 - 7.5 lakh range.
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Old 10th March 2010, 13:02   #95
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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
No reason to believe that this would happen.
...
To say that buyers would immediately shift from i20 to Jazz, the moment Jazz's prices are reduced ----> is merely giving too much credit to Honda/Jazz and too little credit to Hyundai/i20.
It is about competition. A lower priced Jazz would be competitive to i20, which at the moment is selling in big numbers. Even if Jazz is priced lower than i20, there would still be people buying i20. It is about individual choice.

I did not say that buyers would immediately shift from i20 to Jazz. Request you to read my post again.

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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
If you look at it ---> CRV, Civic and Accord are priced competitively vis-a-vis their respective competitors. But they are still at the bottom of their market segments (despite being Honda products!).
CRV is priced 4+ lakhs above Fortuner. Civic is priced 1+ lakhs above Altis. Doesn't that make a difference?

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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
It reeks of fanboyish thinking, doesnt it?
You are telling this to me? Someone who owns a Getz that was purchased soon after launch? Hilarious. My love affair with that car has not ended. I don't see that happening any soon either.

On a serious note, let us not get into personal debates here. Please keep the discussion ON TOPIC and objective. Let us discuss issues here, and not personalities.
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Old 10th March 2010, 13:16   #96
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To be honest, I quite like the Jazz. Its a funky car and looks different from the rest of the hatches. Too bad, it is priced quite high. But after going through good 'ol wikipedia, I discovered that the base model Honda Jazz (called Fit) in the US is priced at $15,000. Thats about INR 7.25 lacs. It is the most expensive sub-compact in the US as well. This makes me wonder if the Jazz is really worth it. Never driven the car, so would not know how it is. I guess Honda will continue selling the Jazz at the same price and it will be a niche hatch.
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Old 10th March 2010, 13:56   #97
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Really ? I thought you said Honda made 'great' engines.
They do. But a 1.2 liter engine cannot do justice to a 1 ton heavy car. It can eb termed adequate, but nothing to boast of.
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So that is one thing. What about looks ? I like how it looks and IMO among its peers, it would rate at the top (maybe below a black i20).
I don't like the looks, especially the front.
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What about FE ? Should be better than other hatches, I would think.
Not sure, but cannot be a lot different than a Ritz or a Swift.
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So, I have 4 reasons for me to go for it, if priced at 6.5L. I dont think owning a Honda is a status symbol, so that is not reason enough for me.
To many, it is a status symbol. I see that from the amounts praise I get at work. My manager frequently, says: "Oh man, you own a Honda City". And I have to correct him: "Err, a Civic". And he says: "Whatever, a Honda".
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So basically you agree that they overpriced it and did not meet the target. That's what most of us are saying here anyway. And given that you agree they did not meet their targets, all that talk about premium pricing and not-wanting-to-do-volumes is well, just talk.
I never denied that. What I was saying was even the ANHC is equally overpriced. So it is their strategy. Of staying in the premium segment. And I said, I respect Honda for that. Jazz didn't have the "City" badge advantage and the boot advantage. If they had named it "City Jazz", instead of "Jazz", it would have sold more the current numbers. Such is the brand value of "Honda" and "City".
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Pre-Jazz, you would have people say that Honda would lose brand value if they ventured anywhere below C-segment. But they did come down to the hatch level. I wont be suprised if they come still further down to where the volume is - in the future. Let's revisit this thread a few years down the line and we would know.
Yes, people said that, Honda didn't. We never know what the future holds. You never know, they might decide to become a volume player one fine day. If they have the will and infrastructure, why not?
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I said it applies across sectors, not each and every product/segment in every sector. What is premium anyway, if something applies to all & sundry ?
I see your point and agree!
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Old 10th March 2010, 18:43   #98
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Originally Posted by sbraj View Post
On a serious note, let us not get into personal debates here. Please keep the discussion ON TOPIC and objective. Let us discuss issues here, and not personalities.
My apologies if I sounded personal. Plz note I was commenting on a certain kind of thinking; and not on a certain kind of person(s).

From the above posts, it is clear...

Honda+Jazz is not a "super-brand" (customers are absolutely unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+Civic is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+Accord is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+CRV is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)

However...
Honda+City is a "super-brand" (customers are willing to overpay for this car)


So, that is my argument ---> there is no reason to believe that reducing the prices of Jazz, would automatically result in significant increase in its sales (though sales would most likely increase, in general).

Why? Simply because Honda is not a super-brand in the mind of Indian customers as some people seem to think, as borne out by above facts.

Only Honda+City is a super-brand ---> however, this doesnt translate into Honda being a super-brand.

If Jazz's prices are reduced, it will still have to fight it out with its competitors on its own merits (because there is no real super-brand halo attached to Honda as some people like to believe).
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Old 10th March 2010, 20:58   #99
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To continue on my previous post:

Honda doesn't seem to have a strategy for the Indian market.

Honda management seems to believe that their cars are automatically qualified to be premium ---- and they have a huge fan base of prospective customers who will pay any (unreasonable) premium for their cars.

However, facts on the ground point otherwise. Except Honda City, there is no significant fan following for any of their other cars. The super-brand halo that Honda believes it has, doesn't exist on the ground.

And to add to it, Honda doesn't seem to have a differentiated strategy for different market segments.

Their strategy for B+ segment, C segment, D segment, SUV segment are all the same ---> Price at a (unreasonable) premium - and the (imagined) Honda super-brand halo would bring in sales.

How wrong can they be! Every different market segment requires a different strategy.

The market segment that Jazz belongs to (B+) comprises VALUE CONSCIOUS buyers buying ASPIRATIONAL cars.

Is Jazz an ASPIRATIONAL car? Maybe not as much as i20. But probably more than Punto / Polo.

Is Jazz VALUE FOR MONEY? Absolutely not.


Mods: Advance apologies for back-to-back posting. Had to take a break after the first post to compose my thoughts clearly in this post.
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:28   #100
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I think this is turning out to be a Honda bashing thread.

By the way what do folks here think are correct/realistic prices for JAZ, City, Cvic, Accord and CRV in their current form?
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:39   #101
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I have test driven the Punto 1.3 MJD and Jazz back to back when wr were selecting a car for my friend. The cars were test driven on the same road since both Honda and Fiat showrooms were on the same road, just a few 100 meters apart. The quality is definitely much superior and the rear seat space is also better but that apart Punto absolutely licked Jazz is every other criteria.
1) With 5 people inside, the Jazz was crashing through on anything larger than a minor undulation on the road while on the same road, everything else remaining the same, the Punto was calm and composed with nary a protest from the suspension.
2) The 1.2 litre engine needs to be revved to extract any sort of performance, Punto on the other hand was relatively effortless. I was expecting a 1.2 litre 90 bhp honda engine to perform decently but was sorely dissapointed. Infact the biggest dissapointment to me was the engine
3) Then comes the price and the features offered and I dont need to elaborate more.

One thing that I must admit is that Jazz made me feel better when I sat inside it but I simply couldnt justify the premium over say an i20 or a Punto. They are far better VFM.
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:41   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
Honda+Jazz is not a "super-brand" (customers are absolutely unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+Civic is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+Accord is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)
Honda+CRV is not a "super-brand" (customers are unwilling to pay a premium for this car)

However...
Honda+City is a "super-brand" (customers are willing to overpay for this car)
My opinion: Honda is a super-brand. City is a super-brand. Jazz, Accord and Civic are not. Do you think that Civic and Jazz would have even sold the current numbers without the "H" badge?
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Old 10th March 2010, 21:43   #103
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
My opinion: Honda is a super-brand. City is a super-brand. Jazz, Accord and Civic are not. Do you think that Civic and Jazz would have even sold the current numbers without the "H" badge?
I agree. City and Civic are best cars in their segment considering the long term ownership. About JAZZ what ever is on offer is of top notch unmatched quality in its segment, but yes Honda went wrong with pricing.
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Old 10th March 2010, 22:20   #104
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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
Honda+City is a "super-brand" (customers are willing to overpay for this car)
I don't think Honda City is a "super-brand" either. IMO, it probably is the best entry level sedan available in the market - in terms of comfort, interior space, looks(subjective, to me ANHC looks good), decent A.S.S etc. So, overall the package is compelling.

Japanese have a reputation for reliability. Unfortunately Toyota does not sell in this segment. This is benefitting Honda, in my opinion.

Hence, many C segment buyers end up with Honda City because of the overall package value compared to Fiesta, Linea. At similar price, I think quite a few others would opt for Innova also.

BTW, what is a "super-brand"? Something like what Tendulkar is to cricket? Honda is nowhere nearer.

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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
So, that is my argument ---> there is no reason to believe that reducing the prices of Jazz, would automatically result in significant increase in its sales (though sales would most likely increase, in general).

Why? Simply because Honda is not a super-brand in the mind of Indian customers as some people seem to think, as borne out by above facts.
I think there still are customers seeing value in Jazz. But the current price is repelling them. A price reduction would pit Jazz as a more serious competition to Punto, i20. Those looking for better interior space would prefer Jazz over the others. Not every one looks at performance of cars while buying.

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If Jazz's prices are reduced, it will still have to fight it out with its competitors on its own merits
Absolutely. I would think the same is true for Honda City as well.
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Old 11th March 2010, 11:01   #105
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
My opinion: Honda is a super-brand. City is a super-brand. Jazz, Accord and Civic are not. Do you think that Civic and Jazz would have even sold the current numbers without the "H" badge?
The general auto market doesn't seem to think so. I can assure you that, because most customers are not willing to pay a premium for Honda cars.

If it was because Honda cars had some weaknesses, then the failure in the market could be attributed to the weaknesses of the specific car models. But I dont really think that Civic or CRV or Accord or Jazz have any real weaknesses vis-a-vis their market segments.

So, the failure to sell them is merely because the market doesn't attribute super-brand status to Honda as Honda management thinks (I am sure by now, they are realizing this ---> better late than never )
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