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Old 11th March 2010, 11:30   #106
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Originally Posted by sbraj View Post
I think there still are customers seeing value in Jazz. But the current price is repelling them. A price reduction would pit Jazz as a more serious competition to Punto, i20. Those looking for better interior space would prefer Jazz over the others. Not every one looks at performance of cars while buying.
B+ segment comprises mostly VALUE CONSCIOUS customers looking for ASPIRATIONAL products.

Jazz has a 'loser' image in the market now. That makes it a product NOT to ASPIRE for. I mean who aspires to be associated with 'losers'?

Reducing prices of Jazz would probably lead the market to slot Jazz from a 'loser' to a 'super-loser' image. Just imagine -- People would say Honda was managing to sell only 200 odd Jazz and now they have gotten desperate and is trying to increase sales by cutting price significantly. That would make Jazz look like a desperado! Honda management knows that -- which is why they haven't taken that path yet (though they may give discounts, freebies, etc). They know that cutting price most likely wont help redeem the product -- in fact it would most likely hurt the product even more.

PS: I think Jazz is an excellent car. But that is my personal opinion and it doesn't really matter what I think. I am trying to put forth, what the general auto market thinks.

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Originally Posted by sbraj View Post
Absolutely. I would think the same is true for Honda City as well.
Honda City has a 'winner' image in the market since many years. People are willing to pay a premium for City --> that means even if they ascribe 8-9 lakhs value to the car, they would pay another 1-2 lakhs for the status / prestige that comes with owning one.

Please note: I am talking of two things here: (1)The value ascribed to the car (2) The value associated with owning the car

If Jazz and i20 were to be priced equally from today ----> I would say that Jazz is better than i20 on (1) but way behind i20 on (2)

Honda needs to work on (2), while bringing down the price of Jazz. Problem is they are self-contradictory as I have mentioned above (Reducing price, often results in the product losing prestige in the market ).

And then there is another parameter --> B+ segment is also very conscious about maintenance costs of the car (unlike C-segment and above). Here also i20 would trump Jazz anyday.
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Old 11th March 2010, 12:08   #107
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Eventhough survey result shows that the market in India is moving towards high end models, still Value for Money is very important . JAZZ doesnt qualify as Value for Money. Also the segment is very new . In other countries this segment is well established . Still in India the feel is " i can get a Sedan" and SEDAN is associated as a Big Car Image and Status Symbol. Honda as a brand is quite popular in India. But i think their stgy or plan is wrong.
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Old 11th March 2010, 14:34   #108
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Originally Posted by AUTO_CRAZY View Post
Honda as a brand is quite popular in India. But i think their stgy or plan is wrong.
Agreed: Honda is a popular brand in India. But that is not the same as being a premium brand. A premium brand is one where people are willing to pay a premium (extra 1 to 5 lakhs) for the car.

A helpful example: Google is a popular brand (I use google searches all the time). But if tomorrow Google started charging money for google search, I would immediately shift to Bing or Yahoo! So, Google is more popular than Bing / Yahoo, but not more premium than Bing or Yahoo. (Of course, advertisers who advertise on Google will have a different perspective on this).

Agreed: Honda's strategy is wrong ---> for the reason that they have conveniently deluded themselves into believing that they are a super-premium brand in India (probably, based on the huge success of Honda City).

Well, nothing is farther from the truth. Indian customers have turned out to be much more complex than Honda could have imagined.

1) Customers of different segments behave totally differently (implies Honda's one strategy for all segments wont work. What works for Honda City wont work for Honda Jazz).

2) Indian customers think Honda is a very good brand, but not a premium brand (implies Honda cannot mindlessly charge premiums for all their cars).

3) Indian customers will not go weak in their knees and swoon as soon as they see a Honda badge. (Indian market respects Honda badge for its strengths. But that is more or less what it is. Honda seems to fancy that every Indian will prostrate before a Honda badge and empty their wallets )

PS: If there is any Honda management fellow reading this - I am expecting to get paid for all the free advice! (and apologies for all the scorn I am heaping on your strategies)
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Old 11th March 2010, 19:20   #109
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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
Agreed: Honda is a popular brand in India. But that is not the same as being a premium brand. A premium brand is one where people are willing to pay a premium (extra 1 to 5 lakhs) for the car.
Popular brand is what Maruti is. People are spending extra for Honda, Jazz included. But not in large numbers, I agree.
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A helpful example: Google is a popular brand (I use google searches all the time). But if tomorrow Google started charging money for google search, I would immediately shift to Bing or Yahoo! So, Google is more popular than Bing / Yahoo, but not more premium than Bing or Yahoo.
What an example! Man, if somebody sells a car at no cost, I would buy that. And there is no prestige associated with the search engine you use or the brand of toilet paper you use. Car is something you show off. A status symbol.
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3) Indian customers will not go weak in their knees and swoon as soon as they see a Honda badge. (Indian market respects Honda badge for its strengths. But that is more or less what it is. Honda seems to fancy that every Indian will prostrate before a Honda badge and empty their wallets
This comment was uncalled for, and is taking things a bit too far. Honda is not charging a premium that is among the Mercs or BMWs. And there is no point seeing things in black and white. Honda has a brand value that is below a Merc or a BMW, but way above a Maruti or a Hyundai or a FIAT.
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Old 11th March 2010, 20:10   #110
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While Honda is one of the car-brands I admire, I don't think there is anything premium about owning a Honda, irrespective of what my boss thinks.

And while I know that their cars are over-priced, I have never felt the need to rant about it because I believe that in a free-market, the seller is free to price their product as they wish and the buyer is free to buy/reject it. The market will finally decide who was right. With the ANHC, Honda was proven right, while with the Jazz, they were proven wrong.

But since we keep reading here about atleast some Indians holding Honda to have high brand value, I guess the following statement can be taken, albeit with a slight modification (addition in bold).
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Originally Posted by civic-sense
Honda has a brand value that is way below a Merc or a BMW, but way above a Maruti or a Hyundai or a FIAT.
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Old 11th March 2010, 20:37   #111
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Car is something you show off. A status symbol.
You said it!!!
Honda Jazz is not a car you can show off, as of today.

If I buy a Honda Jazz and tell my friends about it --> I am sure they are gonna look at me, as though I am a gullible guy who got his wallet walloped

There are VFM cars (you pay for what the car offers) and then there are Aspirational cars (you pay for what the car offers + you pay a premium for social status / prestige that comes with owning the car)

Jazz is neither VFM, nor Aspirational (100% credit goes to Honda marketing for achieving this with an excellent car)
So how do you expect it to sell?

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
This comment was uncalled for, and is taking things a bit too far. Honda is not charging a premium that is among the Mercs or BMWs. And there is no point seeing things in black and white. Honda has a brand value that is below a Merc or a BMW, but way above a Maruti or a Hyundai or a FIAT.
I disagree ---> Honda is indeed charging a premium in the segments it is competing in. (Of course, Honda cars are cheaper than Mercs and BMWs ---> but they belong to different market segments ---> So, there is no comparison to be done there)

I only partly agree ---> Honda in general has a higher brand value than Hyundai. However, Honda Jazz has a brand value way below Hyundai i20. Dont believe me? Look at the sales figures of Jazz

Jun 09: 2032
Jul 09: 1037
Aug 09: 1029
Sep 09: 504
Oct 09: 830
Nov 09: 546
Dec 09: 269
Jan 10: 490
Feb 10: 233

Need I say more?

PS: I don't own any Hyundai car or Honda car. Dont have enough money to buy either a Jazz or an i20
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Old 11th March 2010, 21:59   #112
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I can understand the A$$ whopping sentiments bhp'ians share regarding the price of the Jazz. That said rather than the popular sentiment that Honda is ripping off Indians, I think the Jazz is more about wrong product in the wrong market.
In the U.K the Jazz is almost a whopping 20% more expensive than the i20, this despite the Honda being locally made in Swindon while the i20 is fully imported. And no Honda is no premium/preffered brand in the UK, not by any strecth of ones imagination, maybe a better label than a Hyundai but not enough to justify a 20% price increase.
Somehow of late Honda's R&D expenses, over engineering, manufacturing expenses.... whatever... reflect in cars that are over priced but with very few real world advantages, which reflects in sales wherein even Hyundai/Kia combo today outsells Honda by large margins in the UK.
Bring the Jazz over to India where it is only assembled and not made, the costs jumps up and its price becomes a joke.
Honda needs to develop and make an India specific car and then sell it to the world rather than the other way round. This has been going on since some time now (last I heard the sarees sent from India have reached Japan, now they sending a female Indian citizen, so they can learn what we look like).
Hondas brand strength is pretty much waning. Their cars used to be well engineered, VFM cars with the right dose of driver appeal. The games moved on and most manufacturers have caught up if not overtaken Honda already. A decade ago their model porfolio used to have names like Prelude, CRX, Integra, Civic/Accord Type Rs, NSX, S2000 etc..
Today barring the Type R (which is porky and heavy compared to earlier gens. and way underpowered compared to the Focus RS, Megane Rsport, Golf GTi, heck even the Mazda 3 hot version) none of the Hondas really posses this. There are more desirable Hyundais than Hondas now. Today Honda is pretty much like the regular run of the mill big name car makers but more expensive.
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Old 11th March 2010, 22:09   #113
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Originally Posted by shortbread View Post
Somehow of late Honda's R&D expenses, over engineering, manufacturing expenses.... whatever... reflect in cars that are over priced but with very few real world advantages, which reflects in sales
Sorry, I did not understand this part. Why would Honda only have higher expenses? Aren't the factors contributing to expenditure similar for others as well?
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Old 11th March 2010, 22:17   #114
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Originally Posted by PYSO View Post
You said it!!!
Honda Jazz is not a car you can show off, as of today.

If I buy a Honda Jazz and tell my friends about it --> I am sure they are gonna look at me, as though I am a gullible guy who got his wallet walloped
There are VFM cars (you pay for what the car offers) and then there are Aspirational cars (you pay for what the car offers + you pay a premium for social status / prestige that comes with owning the car)

Jazz is neither VFM, nor Aspirational (100% credit goes to Honda marketing for achieving this with an excellent car)
So how do you expect it to sell?
There are atleast a few who loves exclusivity. Some love the brand. Some buy Marutis and Hyundais and secretly wishes that they could buy a Honda*.
Quote:

I disagree ---> Honda is indeed charging a premium in the segments it is competing in. (Of course, Honda cars are cheaper than Mercs and BMWs ---> but they belong to different market segments ---> So, there is no comparison to be done there)
Do you mean to say that in case Merc decides to sell the A-class here, they'd price it along with the Swift and i20?
Quote:
I only partly agree ---> Honda in general has a higher brand value than Hyundai. However, Honda Jazz has a brand value way below Hyundai i20. Dont believe me? Look at the sales figures of Jazz
Brand value for a brand name which is only a little more than a year old? Both "Jazz" and "i20" have no brand value. C'mon, i20 sells more because it is cheaper. If both cars were priced same, Jazz with less features would have sold more than feature-laden i20.

* ps: I didn't buy a Honda for its badge. That was the cheapest car with paddles. Ofcourse, without an EPS.

Last edited by civic-sense : 11th March 2010 at 22:20.
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Old 11th March 2010, 22:25   #115
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Give it a 1.8 i-vtec and i will book one tomorrow.

It 'would' have been a great car if it was priced alongside the i20 and would have more engine options.
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Old 11th March 2010, 22:39   #116
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i guess we should not bash honda for its policies /prices/etc too much.
its their product, their pricing, i you like it buy it, if you dont like it, then buy anything else. honda is not coming to your home to request you to buy it. If honda is happy with its sales and policies, who are we to advise them big time.

this does not mean that i am saying that jazz is a good car or bad car.
i guess this thread is going so long because in their hearts everyone likes the car but would want the prices to be lower.
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Old 11th March 2010, 22:56   #117
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Both "Jazz" and "i20" have no brand value.
IF you think that i20 doesnt have brand value ---> you should definitely check out the sales figures. And also check out the i20 AT Petrol / i20 CRDi prices.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
C'mon, i20 sells more because it is cheaper. If both cars were priced same, Jazz with less features would have sold more than feature-laden i20.
Again, blind trust in Honda's brand value, isnt it? (which is what got Jazz in the soup in the first instance).

And give a little credit to i20 for the reception the Indian market has given it
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Old 11th March 2010, 23:12   #118
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Brand value for a brand name which is only a little more than a year old? Both "Jazz" and "i20" have no brand value. C'mon, i20 sells more because it is cheaper. If both cars were priced same, Jazz with less features would have sold more than feature-laden i20.
What "i20 sells more because it is cheaper"?? Cheaper than what??
No offense and with due respect to all the Hyundai customers, It's just that somehow I don't like Hyundai cars but will like to raise my disagreement with above point.

IMO i20 sells cause of brand "Hyundai" which is backed up by superior A.S.S which is only 2nd to Maruti, fit and finish and equipment level to the price at which its offered.

If both cars were priced same, ah h that will happen only if Honda goes bankrupt like GM!! Lets not talk about if's and butt's.

The moral of the story is Honda messed up Jazz with its "Premium" pricing.
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Old 11th March 2010, 23:27   #119
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
There are atleast a few who loves exclusivity. Some love the brand. Some buy Marutis and Hyundais and secretly wishes that they could buy a Honda*.

Brand value for a brand name which is only a little more than a year old? Both "Jazz" and "i20" have no brand value. C'mon, i20 sells more because it is cheaper. If both cars were priced same, Jazz with less features would have sold more than feature-laden i20.

* ps: I didn't buy a Honda for its badge. That was the cheapest car with paddles. Ofcourse, without an EPS.
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Originally Posted by car-dent View Post
i guess we should not bash honda for its policies /prices/etc too much.
its their product, their pricing, i you like it buy it, if you dont like it, then buy anything else. honda is not coming to your home to request you to buy it.

i guess this thread is going so long because in their hearts everyone likes the car but would want the prices to be lower.
+1

If the Jazz was priced anywhere close to i20, IMO it would have been amongst the top 2, if not the top, in its segment. Many of us, me included, would love to buy the Jazz - but cannot justify / afford it.

Its more a case of "sour grapes" for those amongst us who were eagerly waiting for it to be launched in India and even planning to buy it. But then Honda spoils the party by pricing it out of contention. Our heart still says buy a Jazz, but the mind chips in with the VFM factor!

Please don't pounce on me, as this is no generalization, and there are quite a few people who simply don't like Jazz for various reasons. But they are definitely a minority. A simple poll "Price apart, do you like Jazz as a car?" should clear things out.

* PS: I don't own a Jazz and presently, cannot afford one. But that is not stopping me from loving the car!

Last edited by SunilM : 11th March 2010 at 23:28.
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Old 11th March 2010, 23:47   #120
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Originally Posted by SunilM View Post
+1
A simple poll "Price apart, do you like Jazz as a car?" should clear things out.
exactly.
i am sure , most of the people will not have much bad to say if cost is not be talked about.
i am not talking about the specs on paper, but when you get into the car and drive , the feel good factor is great for jazz. i have test driven it twice and loved it more than i20 crdi (my opinion).
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