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Old 19th March 2010, 21:10   #31
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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
The Indian govt did not need to beg anyone to sell cars or set up shop in India, lots of people would have set up facilities if they had just been allowed. The only thing that people car makers were reluctant to join was the pet project of some questionable political figure. And at the end of the day, they accepted not out of some deep seated desire to help India, but only because they saw nice fat profits ahead as a monopoly, and quite rightly too, since they have re-couped their investment many times over and perhaps wouldn't even have survived without the Indian market. The boundless gratitude from legions of Maruti fanboys is just a bonus.
Who said that Suzuki had altruistic motives? They saw an oppurtunity the others did not. Period. Anybody could have had that monopoly had they so wished!
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Old 20th March 2010, 19:39   #32
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I agree that Osamusan put his foot in his mouth! He did say all that was quoted here and more. He even said the Nano will be two Motorcycles welded together, that it will have no doors and only curtains in lieu of windows etc! He also quipped "when it does ultimately come out, it may have only three wheels"!

And his piety about safety features is a joke too, with the 800 and Omni in his portfolio. But fact is for the entry / just above entry level buyer such things are a luxury. Take my case - all I wanted was a roof, four wheels and a little creature comforts such as AC, PS and a music system. And I wanted a new car, not used. At that level, I felt the Alto was perfect for me - though I did TD the Spark and Santro. I had a mental block towards Korean cars!

But the fact remains that Suzuki make excellent, I would say even jewel like small displacement petrol engines. I will trust a similar engine from TATA only a few years down the line - their diesel engines are a different matter. And the engine note of the nano is a big turn off. It will definitely replace the 800, but I doubt it can best the Alto / Eeco combine. The next year after the Sanand nano plant starts full production will reveal the truth.
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Old 20th March 2010, 20:41   #33
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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
M800 might have put India on wheels but it had less to do with Suzuki than the Indian govt policies. ...
...Its not like they did India a favour by coming here, OTOH it was India that did them a favour by giving them virtual monopoly rights under the license Raj. And even if people are happy with Maruti cars or service, its not like they are doing social service for us here, they are here purely for making a profit.
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
The whole point is there was no need for Indian government to put conditions or even beg anyone , If they would have made it level playing field and open for all so many players would have come just like earlier in Thailand and post 1998 in India.

They are reaping reward of being the only chosen one by son of then PM of India who was not holding any public office at that time , In free world this is known as nepotism
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Originally Posted by chncar View Post
The Indian govt did not need to beg anyone to sell cars or set up shop in India, lots of people would have set up facilities if they had just been allowed. The only thing that people car makers were reluctant to join was the pet project of some questionable political figure. And at the end of the day, they accepted not out of some deep seated desire to help India, but only because they saw nice fat profits ahead as a monopoly, and quite rightly too, since they have re-couped their investment many times over and perhaps wouldn't even have survived without the Indian market. The boundless gratitude from legions of Maruti fanboys is just a bonus.
No business ever envisages to run without a profit. But there needs to be some awareness of the history regarding the creation of Maruti Suzuki (vis-a-vis the chances offered to other world's leading players by the Indian Govt in the early 1980's) and its roots leading to some politician's son (who died when again?). It's all available in the public domain.
While earning their money, if some business impacts a country's/world's economy, then due credit needs to be given (without licking anyone's boots of course).
Talking only of sour grapes, boy ain't the biggies of auto industry fighting in a cue only now after Suzuki has (after considerable hard work and GoI support) relaxed fat reeling in profits!

Last edited by Delta Wing : 20th March 2010 at 20:44.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 12:47   #34
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I have a question?
Will Tata Nano overtaking Maruti 800 in number of units sold have an impact on maruti or the Indian car scenario?

I'm asking this because i feel the Indian consumer wants more than what the Nano offers.
Nano's main target segment is people who want to upgrade from a 2wheeler to car. This segment is not looking at the Nano as an aspirational buy. They wan't more, they wan't respect in society which a Nano won't give them (this is what the majority feels). Looking at this, my guess is Nano's competitor will not be the 800. It will be the Alto or any another car lauched in the 2 lac segment.

The segment which is upbeat about Nano is the 2nd car segment. i.e people who already own a family car and want a 2nd car for their wife/dad to drive around when the family car is not available at home. This segment will not drive the volumes Nano is expected to generate as soon as full fledged production starts.

Look at the 2 wheeler segment. Till 10 years back there was a big market for sub 100cc mopeds. people bought them more than the motorcycles.
But today that market has almost vanished except the Scooty which is bought mostly by college going girls. Today a 2wheeler means minimum 100c and a budget of 35k and above.
In today's India when purchacing power has increased by leaps and bounds will a Nano or 800 stand a chance against the Altos?
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Old 22nd March 2010, 12:54   #35
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
I have a question?
Will Tata Nano overtaking Maruti 800 in number of units sold have an impact on maruti or the Indian car scenario?

I'm asking this because i feel the Indian consumer wants more than what the Nano offers.
Nano's main target segment is people who want to upgrade from a 2wheeler to car. This segment is not looking at the Nano as an aspirational buy. They wan't more, they wan't respect in society which a Nano won't give them (this is what the majority feels). Looking at this, my guess is Nano's competitor will not be the 800. It will be the Alto or any another car lauched in the 2 lac segment.
I agree. The 800 will gradually vanish from the scene. The main nano competitors will be the Alto / Eeco. Take the top variants of the nano and the Alto. For a price difference of ~ 50k, the Alto Lxi is a better aspirational buy IMO. The Eeco too is almost similarly priced. And most importantly, they don't sound like an auto.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 13:16   #36
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
In today's India when purchacing power has increased by leaps and bounds will a Nano or 800 stand a chance against the Altos?
TO answer this question we need to rewind and go back to pre-nano days.

May I ask what was so aspirational about Alto ? M800 is actually an older Alto kept alive in Indian market by Maruti. Maruti had to withdraw 5 gear MPFI model of 800 becuase it was eating in to Alto sales.

A small minority may have feelt that Alto has certain aspirational value just by thinking that they are not at bottom of food chain that is they are above M800. Still M-800 sold due to minor price point difference. There are lot many people who give too hoots to this pretense of snob value and actually bought 800, we need to keep in mind that M-800 is being phased out because if Maruti again puts MPFI engine suitable for Euro-4 it will cannibalize the Alto , estello and Wagon R sales to an extent.
And they can not fight on price point with nano so 800 today serves no purpose.


So nothing has changed for nano just that Tata has moved the price point still lower then maruti -800 with slightly more power then original M-800 engine and also they have no fear of internal cannibalization so will continue to give Euro-4 or Electric engines for Nano in years to come.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 14:04   #37
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
May I ask what was so aspirational about Alto ? M800 is actually an older Alto kept alive in Indian market by Maruti. Maruti had to withdraw 5 gear MPFI model of 800 becuase it was eating in to Alto sales.
Simple - slightly more power, better AC and a power steering. And a better monocoque body than the 800. definitely more comfortable on all counts. And they had to withdraw the 1000 cc Alto because it was butchering Wagon-R and Zen sales!

Quote:
Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
A small minority may have feelt that Alto has certain aspirational value just by thinking that they are not at bottom of food chain that is they are above M800. Still M-800 sold due to minor price point difference. There are lot many people who give too hoots to this pretense of snob value and actually bought 800, we need to keep in mind that M-800 is being phased out because if Maruti again puts MPFI engine suitable for Euro-4 it will cannibalize the Alto , estello and Wagon R sales to an extent.
And they can not fight on price point with nano so 800 today serves no purpose.


So nothing has changed for nano just that Tata has moved the price point still lower then maruti -800 with slightly more power then original M-800 engine and also they have no fear of internal cannibalization so will continue to give Euro-4 or Electric engines for Nano in years to come.
I have already answered about the aspirational value. In all models of all cars, it is generally the top variant or two that sell more than the base ones. If the 800 offered all that the Alto did, may be people would have struck to it, may be not! The point is it did not, period. As for hypothetical musings of "if this car had that engine option" etc, well, if aunty sprouts a moustache she becomes an uncle without doubt, but till then she remains an aunty!

We just wanted more comfort than the 800 and bought the Alto, that was no snobbery at all! Extending the same logic, can I conclude you bought the Safari instead of the Sumo for it's snob value?

In conclusion, I predict the nano will neither set the sales charts on fire nor drive other brands out, but merely co-exist with them. Similar predictions were made during the Indica launch as well!
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Old 22nd March 2010, 14:12   #38
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Simple - slightly more power, better AC and a power steering. And a better monocoque body than the 800. definitely more comfortable on all counts. And they had to withdraw the 1000 cc Alto because it was butchering Wagon-R and Zen sales!
That is after they stopped M-800 5 gear MPFI model for the same reason Alto 1.1 was stopped this is exactly what I have writen.
Suppose if M-800 MPFI would have continued many people would have purchased it instead of Alto and ditto goes for 1.1 lit Alto and Wagon-R / Zen.

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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
As for hypothetical musings of "if this car had that engine option" etc, well, if aunty sprouts a moustache she becomes an uncle without doubt, but till then she remains an aunty!
This is not hypothetical musing Anuty had mustache , That is M-800 5gear MPFI model was on sale in 2000- 2001 and it was withdrawn from market in 2002 because it was eating in to alto.


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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
We just wanted more comfort than the 800 and bought the Alto, that was no snobbery at all! Extending the same logic, can I conclude you bought the Safari instead of the Sumo for it's snob value?

In conclusion, I predict the nano will neither set the sales charts on fire nor drive other brands out, but merely co-exist with them. Similar predictions were made during the Indica launch as well!
We all know it will coexist , but weren't predictions about Indica became true eventually? It opened an entirely new segment of Diesel hatchbacks and was largest selling Car in it's class or probably only car in it's class for very long time. Even after Swift is launched it is selling decent numbers.

Remember Maruti said Diesel is dirty fuel and they will not touch it but they made a laugable attempt in makeing Zen-D finally they got reliable fiat engine and launched Swift.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 14:39   #39
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@amitk26

Well, that still does not answer my query about Safari and Sumo, does it!

We all know Maruti officials frequently suffer from "Foot in the mouth" disease! But that does not take away the fact that they make excellent small displacement petrol engines. Tata motors is nowhere near them in this aspect.

Don't mistake me, I would buy a diesel car from them any day! But not the nano, even in diesel avatar.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 14:48   #40
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Remember Maruti said Diesel is dirty fuel and they will not touch it but they made a laugable attempt in makeing Zen-D finally they got reliable fiat engine and launched Swift.
Let's not turn this into a Maruti Vs Tata battle.

My question was is it still relevant to make a car, which is not a full car in the traditional sense and expect it to be a best seller?
considering the fact that today the Indian consumer prefers a 100c bike to a much cheaper moped. Which means he wants more at Indian prices.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 15:27   #41
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I guess people are forgetting that NANO doesn't cost 1 Lac, It cost way more than that. So the whole point of the debate is lost.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 15:53   #42
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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
We all know Maruti officials frequently suffer from "Foot in the mouth" disease! But that does not take away the fact that they make excellent small displacement petrol engines. Tata motors is nowhere near them in this aspect..
But, Tata motors is using Fiat Petrol engines now for their cars. So, that should address Petrol engine problem too. There has been a talk of using new Fiat SDE 800cc engine in Nano.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 16:32   #43
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Let's not turn this into a Maruti Vs Tata battle.

My question was is it still relevant to make a car, which is not a full car in the traditional sense and expect it to be a best seller?
considering the fact that today the Indian consumer prefers a 100c bike to a much cheaper moped. Which means he wants more at Indian prices.
Well I did not turn it in to Maruti or Tata it came in because reference of M-800 , Alto or whatever was there.

Keeping QC and doubts on reliability aside Any way I do not understand in what way nano is not a full car in what sense ? Is the next benchmark Alto
( or M-800 that is old Alto any fuller ) ?


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Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
@amitk26

Well, that still does not answer my query about Safari and Sumo, does it!

.
Safari and Sumo ( Grande) are two very different vehicles , If my primary requirement was to move more then 5 people then I would have gone for grande or Xylo or Innova after due evaluation.

Maruti 800 and Alto are comparable because Maruti 800 is first generation Alto , Alto is second generation and Zen is 3ed generation.

I do own a M-800 still as my second vehicle and absolutely love it.

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Originally Posted by Rahulkool View Post
I guess people are forgetting that NANO doesn't cost 1 Lac, It cost way more than that. So the whole point of the debate is lost.
well untill stated otherwise ex factory of bottommost model is still 1 lakh.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 16:44   #44
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Keeping QC and doubts on reliability aside Any way I do not understand in what way nano is not a full car in what sense ? Is the next benchmark Alto ( or M-800 that is old Alto any fuller ) ?

Safari and Sumo ( Grande) are two very different vehicles , If my primary requirement was to move more then 5 people then I would have gone for grande or Xylo or Innova after due evaluation.

Maruti 800 and Alto are comparable because Maruti 800 is first generation Alto , Alto is second generation and Zen is 3ed generation.

I do own a M-800 still as my second vehicle and absolutely love it.
The next benchmark is indeed the current Alto. Despite the lesser space compared to the nano, it is a more rounded offering IMO. And it sounds like a car!

I think the Zen was the second Alto, the current Alto was the third and the A-Star the fourth iteration, if I remember right.

Point noted about Safari Vs Sumo! Agreed both 800 and Alto are effectively 4 seaters, but the Alto carries 4 in better comfort. So where does snobbery come in? That was what rankled a bit!

Last edited by Gansan : 22nd March 2010 at 16:46.
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Old 22nd March 2010, 17:11   #45
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Originally Posted by amitk26 View Post
Keeping QC and doubts on reliability aside Any way I do not understand in what way nano is not a full car in what sense ? Is the next benchmark Alto
When a guy who owns a 2 wheeler and wants to upgrade to a car, but has only enough money to buy the cheapest available one in the market, he would also like the car to be

1. A car that looks and feels like any other car and doesn't look like an AutoRickshaw with doors.
2. A car which does the occasonal highway trip @ 100kph speeds and feel stable.
3. A car which he will flaunt as his own at an extended family get-together.
4. A car which gives 15+ mileage.
5. A car which is reliable with no major hassles.

Today only the Alto satisfies all this and it has to the benchmark which Nano or any other car should try to surpass if it truly wants to be the "Hero Honda cd100" among 4-wheelers.
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