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Old 23rd March 2010, 18:30   #106
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@CPH

I completely agree here. I too, am an auto industry insider (so as to speak), not working with Tata.

There is so much muck inside the auto industry than outsiders can ever imagine. This to me is just peanuts compared to many things that get covered on a day-to-day basis in 'hi.tech companies'. Also, fortunately we are still speaking small numbers.

Newspaper reporters investigate and judge the car accident within minutes and the rest repeat the verdict like parrots. To do a serious investigation will take at least weeks let alone days! How scientific are these conclusions?
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Old 23rd March 2010, 18:32   #107
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Default Tatas should investigate the incident & come up with explanation

In my opinion, Tata (the company) should investigate the incident (along with independent experts) & come up with unbiased explanation. Further, there should be adequate modifications in the engine so that it does not catch fire either in the front (steering assembly) or rear (engine bay). Like what they did in Jan-10.

Stopping production would only aid to the misery of those in the waiting list & then these would be the one cursing Tata like few of our forum members.

My 2 brother-in-laws have Tata cars (Indica & Safari) & they have been very satisfied with Tata generally.

One of them bough the Indica after M800 & cannot stop praising the Tata over the M800 on overall basis.
Other one bought the Safari after Indica. He also owns a City GXi but prefers Safari & leaves the refined City for my cousin sister.

Another colleague had a Tata Estate in the past & now owns a Modified 207 & is again very satisfied (his family owns a Santro & M800 also).

I understand that many of the above comments have been made by people who have owned Tata car in the past or are presently owning a Tata lemon.
But, I see a sizeable number of those who are posting on basis of horror stories heard from third party (need not be reliable sources).

BTW, what is the percentage of burning Nanos vrs the Nanos delivered... .25%... does it justify such outcry in light of what is happening with almost all other manufacturers.

It is better we form an opinion on basis of information & data rather than fairy tales. Only then any sound judgement can be formed.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 18:42   #108
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@ Trapezio - Unfortunately insiders are the ones that few want to believe. They rather go along with the people who hype it up. ???

@ Cardeep - I totally agree that people wning a lemon have the right to complainor not to want to own a car of the specific company they had the problem with.

Fiat had a very bad reputation for all sort of things. I still own 8 plus an Alfa Romeo, which is also part of the group.

Hardly anyone talks about the lemons Mercedes provides on a daily basis.

BTW, when I come over to Mumbai someone has to give me a ride in a Nano. And if I should manage to built a base in your lovely country I will buy a Nano. Of course it has to share the garage with one of my Fiats
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Old 23rd March 2010, 18:51   #109
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Dear CPH,
We are talking about India and about an important issue very specific to Indian consumers. We don't have to take Merc to court because Mcclaren caught fire. Those exotics are selling in India once a blue moon, whereas this little machine, specifically designed for Indian Comman man, is going to sell in tens of thousands every month. Try to imagine the volume of Nanos that would be running on Indian roads 2-3 years down the line (And how many imported cars would be on our roads at that time?) directly translating into number of people that could possibly be affected.

It the sheer volume that is drawing more concern rather than how big or how small the car maker is. If the had same happened on a high-end Indian car (take Tata-Safari for example), with the same scale, there would not have been such a hue and cry, as the volume of people that could be affected would not be worth of such investigation.

And one cannot brush aside just like that saying 'you cannot make our any investigation from a burnt car'. One can always take some clues from the damaged machine and analyze the machine under production to eliminate 'all possible causes'.
Finally, Dear friend, this is not 'sensationalism', seriously, its impact reaches a very large group of 'going-to-be-owners' of this car and sure needs the right attention.

Last edited by RajaTaurus : 23rd March 2010 at 18:53.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:01   #110
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Originally Posted by Trapezio View Post
True true. But how do we know that Nano has a problem?
I agree, it is hard. But Tata found the faulty component for the first three cases. And they're investigating this case. So they should be knowing what the problem is soon.

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Look rather at the 8.5 million death traps Toyota had to call back. They tried to sweep it under the carpet. Why aren't you at their throat
.
.
Can you even comprehend what 8.5 million is? A handful cars you make a big fuss on things that have totally blown out of proportion, when not even anyone was hurt.
First of all, its not making a big fuss. Someone posted that the chances of being caught in a fire in a Nano were so low compared to so many other things that could kill you on the road that Tata needn't bother about it. If you agree with that sentiment, then that's plain ridiculous. No matter how small the number, a good company looks into the problem. Its a good thing you don't run Tata, else we'd be happily sweeping this under the rug saying its only four cars after all.

Second, two wrongs don't make a right. Telling me that Toyota made 8.5 million defective cars, so Tata can go ahead and not bother about defects in its cars is stupid. A fire is a fire, and since this fourth case was on a brand new car, Tata should be investigating. I find Tata's response reasonable so far. Found the faulty component for the first three cases and, as expected, they are now investigating the fourth. Better fix a problem now pre-emptively than wait for it to occur in hundreds of Nanos and then deciding to act.

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Don't ape the American hysteria. Get real for goodness sake.
Let me get this straight. I said that if Tata finds a problem, they should be acknowledging and fixing it. You think that's "American hysteria". Lol, get real yourself!

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 23rd March 2010 at 19:11.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:29   #111
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Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
Dear CPH,
We are talking about India and about an important issue very specific to Indian consumers. We don't have to take Merc to court because Mcclaren caught fire. Those exotics are selling in India once a blue moon, whereas this little machine, specifically designed for Indian Comman man, is going to sell in tens of thousands every month. Try to imagine the volume of Nanos that would be running on Indian roads 2-3 years down the line (And how many imported cars would be on our roads at that time?) directly translating into number of people that could possibly be affected.

It the sheer volume that is drawing more concern rather than how big or how small the car maker is. If the had same happened on a high-end Indian car (take Tata-Safari for example), with the same scale, there would not have been such a hue and cry, as the volume of people that could be affected would not be worth of such investigation.

And one cannot brush aside just like that saying 'you cannot make our any investigation from a burnt car'. One can always take some clues from the damaged machine and analyze the machine under production to eliminate 'all possible causes'.
Finally, Dear friend, this is not 'sensationalism', seriously, its impact reaches a very large group of 'going-to-be-owners' of this car and sure needs the right attention.
McLaren was one car and Mercedes was the other car I was talking about.

658,000 cars from Mercedes with lethal brakes I am talking about. This was an easy on to sort.

Do you know whatit means being on the motorway on the fats lane with a engine seizing or a gear box/diff packing at 140+km (legal were I was driving)? I have experienced it.

160,000 Mercedes engines/boxes seizing had the potential to do the same damage. Luckily the seizing didn't happen a great deal on motorways.

Series' of airbags going off for no reason. You don't want to experience this.

Have you ever investigated a totally burnt out car? Would you take in on your conscience to make a assessment by rushing it andcoming to a conclusion that might not be certain? Would you change the components that are the culprit in your opinion and then assure the prospective buyers it is all safe? What about if you are wrong and it turns out to be something else? Then you would be guilty of the consequences even if it is only morally. I would not take this on me. I rather investigate thoroughly ad make sure.

I have seen 11 people die on the road. I don't like the sight of it, but panic actions do not serve anyone's purpose.

The responsibility on the investigators is huge. Fire is the biggest enemy of an investigator.

The fire starting in the engine bay can have quite a number of reasons

Just to name a few:

Potential differences (electrical): Can be caused by lack of earthingpoints, poor assembly, faulty cables, wrong fitting, paint, parts not fitted

Short circuits: Can be caused by poor assembly, material inconsistency, design faults, parts not installed, overload of components, faulty electronic components, installation of wrong components.

Fuel leaks: poor assembly, faulty components, material inconsistency, sparks, potential problems.

Heat build up: poor assembly of components, design fault, leaving things behind.

Sabotage

Some of the problems are virtually impossible to prove when fire strikes. And car fires are severe.

As the failure rate is in the 1/1000 range it has to be considered an intermittent problem, which makes investigation even more difficult.


And it might not have gone through to everyone:

Ratan Tata has got to worry quite a bit more then a prospective buyer. He has to make his living from what he sells. And so have the engineers. They are more interested than anyone here on the forum and anywhere else.

I am sure if you call Mr Tata and tell him that you can within only a week solve the investigation you will never need to earn any more money.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:40   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH View Post
I am sure if you call Mr Tata and tell him that you can within only a week solve the investigation you will never need to earn any more money.
There are many in the forum who are capable of solving this, i being one among those "many", what do you say guys?

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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:44   #113
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
I agree, it is hard. But Tata found the faulty component for the first three cases. And they're investigating this case. So they should be knowing what the problem is soon.



First of all, its not making a big fuss. Someone posted that the chances of being caught in a fire in a Nano were so low compared to so many other things that could kill you on the road that Tata needn't bother about it. If you agree with that sentiment, then that's plain ridiculous. No matter how small the number, a good company looks into the problem. Its a good thing you don't run Tata, else we'd be happily sweeping this under the rug saying its only four cars after all.

Second, two wrongs don't make a right. Telling me that Toyota made 8.5 million defective cars, so Tata can go ahead and not bother about defects in its cars is stupid. A fire is a fire, and since this fourth case was on a brand new car, Tata should be investigating. I find Tata's response reasonable so far. Found the faulty component for the first three cases and, as expected, they are now investigating the fourth. Better fix a problem now pre-emptively than wait for it to occur in hundreds of Nanos and then deciding to act.



Let me get this straight. I said that if Tata finds a problem, they should be acknowledging and fixing it. You think that's "American hysteria". Lol, get real yourself!
I begin to believe that you just argue for the arguements sake.

The blond allegations you make about me stem from someone who doesn't bother reading properly.

Tata is investigating. You plainly have got not a clue what this industries is about.

Before you make anymore derogative comments read what I wrote and stick to facts.

Ifs do not make facts. You aren't factual at all. If I were to run Tata I would investigate as they are doing it and not speculate like you.

So please refrain from such allegations. In my business it was often the reponsibility to make sure that lives aren't endangered. So far my record is nil fatalities and nil casualties, which not everyone can claim.

If you want to maintain your statement then I have to take this as an insult.

And by your speculation, which isn't based on any facts as you neither know the procedures in the industries nor the legal implications you will only spark further detrimental arguments for the sales of the Nano.

You neither have the rights nor the expertise to call the Nano an unsafe car.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:46   #114
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CPH, is it possible to find any sources on the internet that also talk about the data you've mentioned? Or are we supposed to take your word for it?

By all means, feel free to take my arguments as an insult to you. I couldn't care less since its not breaking any forum rules.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 23rd March 2010 at 19:51.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 19:54   #115
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Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
CPH, is it possible to find any sources on the internet that also talk about the data you've mentioned? Or are we supposed to take your word for it?

By all means, feel free to take my stance as an insult to you. I couldn't care less since its not breaking any forum rules..

Ever heard of Google or Yahoo? If you want to find it it is all there?

Allegations are breaking forum rules.

And you seem to be quite a disrespectful person. This seems t be the reason why you are clashing with people.

Your arguments are certainly not for a fact finding mission than rather for yourself, which is not aiding the OP's original qestion and certainly doesn't help solving the problem Tata has got to solve and migt even influence people in the wrong way.

One way to destroy a product.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:01   #116
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Let me ask you a straight question @ CPH.

After this event, do you think no matter what - whether Tata investgates or not, finds out the possible cause or not, makes amends if it were a design problem or not - the prospective buyers should blindly go ahead and buy Nano today, tomorrow or the day after leaving it to fate, whether or not they will be killed by such a fire in a Nano taking solace that they might get killed otherwise too in so many unforseen and forseen ways?
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:04   #117
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Ever heard of Google or Yahoo? If you want to find it it is all there?
Heard of it. Tried searching for "658000 Mercedes brakes" and have no results. Perhaps you could get Google to work better.

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Originally Posted by CPH View Post
Allegations are breaking forum rules.

And you seem to be quite a disrespectful person. This seems t be the reason why you are clashing with people.
I haven't made a single one. You appear to believe that argumentation, which uses a combination of logic and facts, is the same as allegation. In any case, feel free to report my posts and a mod will decide.

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Your arguments are certainly not for a fact finding mission than rather for yourself, which is not aiding the OP's original qestion and certainly doesn't help solving the problem Tata has got to solve and migt even influence people in the wrong way.

One way to destroy a product.
You may not see it since you refused to respond properly to any of my points but I do make some valid arguments. Is that why you're so bent on discrediting them with rhetoric and claimed expertise in the field instead of logical counter arguments or readily available facts?
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:17   #118
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This thread is also on fire, and I suspect some of it is because of crossed wires on semantics and misunderstanding of intent conveyed, so may I suggest a cooling off?!
Separately, the fire thing stands out because it is a very visible, potentially lethal defect. If one has an accident because of a defect, the resultant mess and chaos does not allow just the defect to stand out and be very visible as a fire does. Personally I believe both Scorpios and Safaris to be unsafe in their handling and braking characteristics, and I would allege that a lot of accidents of these cars are as much on this account as on account of reckless and uneducated about SUV driving. No one makes a song and dance about these defects now, do they?!
No new flames please...
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:23   #119
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Originally Posted by Ponmayilal View Post
Let me ask you a straight question @ CPH.

After this event, do you think no matter what - whether Tata investgates or not, finds out the possible cause or not, makes amends if it were a design problem or not - the prospective buyers should blindly go ahead and buy Nano today, tomorrow or the day after leaving it to fate, whether or not they will be killed by such a fire in a Nano taking solace that they might get killed otherwise too in so many unforseen and forseen ways?
I do understand where you are coming from and people have are right to be concerned. The problem with cars is that they are constantly changing due to regulations and demands, which creates risks. Whatever car you are buying you are at the mercy of the manufacturer.

Tata will resolve the problem. They have done it before.

The issues around te steering column have been solved and can't be thrown into the discussion about unsolved problems.

A handful of cars having such problems is not a valid reason to render a car unsafe. If you read my posts carefully you will see how difficult it is to assess the problem. How do we know that it is because of Tata.

I go in my local Fiat dealer and go freely in and out of the workshop, the parts department and remove comonents in the showroom.

A child could have been in the showroom and stuff something into a vent. Children love to do things like it. Someone has got an axe to grind with the dealer. People do weird things.

A third of all 500 Abarth delivered in the first year were non runners. It had to be picked up while they PDId them.

The Abarth tech in the workshop of the Fiat dealer is not doing the PDI anymore. The Abarth sales girl seems to know more than him.

We are talking a totally burnt out car. Tata can't take responsibility for somethinjg that isn't their fault. On the other hand they can't claim it wasn't their fault because they have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. Both statements can have huge legal implications.

Believe me I am not talking lightly like a certain 19 year old who knows it all. There is much more at stake. What some people also forget is that if a company goes down under or looses a massive share in the market, many families are affected.

The buyers will always be in a difficult situation. No product is perfect.

But a fact is that not a single person had any physical injury experienced driving or being driven in a Nano. Many people died in other cars paossibly in other Tatas due to design faults.

Fire is a terrible thing and some people might be frightened now, but they will always have the risk to have similar problems in other cars.

When you add up the odds the Nano doesn't fare all that badly. At least better than some much higher rated cars.

And this is the message for people considering a Nano or dropping out of a purchase.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:30   #120
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Heard of it. Tried searching for "658000 Mercedes brakes" and have no results. Perhaps you could get Google to work better.



I haven't made a single one. You appear to believe that argumentation, which uses a combination of logic and facts, is the same as allegation. In any case, feel free to report my posts and a mod will decide.



You may not see it since you refused to respond properly to any of my points but I do make some valid arguments. Is that why you're so bent on discrediting them with rhetoric and claimed expertise in the field instead of logical counter arguments or readily available facts?
A 19 year old student knows everything in theory, but hardly has got the experience what the real world is.

And how good you are on searching shows that you can't even find the brake problem, which was even reported in top gear about apart from the fact that it was the news all over Europe, Asia etc.

I do not need to respond because I and others have stated it already. Just read it.

I won't reply any further to your comments after this one because you need first growing up and learn to respect others.
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