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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:36   #121
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Separately, the fire thing stands out because it is a very visible, potentially lethal defect. If one has an accident because of a defect, the resultant mess and chaos does not allow just the defect to stand out and be very visible as a fire does. Personally I believe both Scorpios and Safaris to be unsafe in their handling and braking characteristics, and I would allege that a lot of accidents of these cars are as much on this account as on account of reckless and uneducated about SUV driving. No one makes a song and dance about these defects now, do they?!
No new flames please...
You ae right and the media is using it for filling papers and news slots, which is their way of making a living. Fire sells.

If I come round and murder your neighbour it will be soon forgotten in the news. Ratan Tata has a problem with his product and the media is blessed with something as fear instilling as a fire - hey, it makes head lines.

It is a bit like bird flu. Not even 250 peope died in all the years from it. But it sold well. Who cares about other diseases that kill over 20,000 a day? No sensation anymore.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:43   #122
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And how good you are on searching shows that you can't even find the brake problem, which was even reported in top gear about apart from the fact that it was the news all over Europe, Asia etc.
Fair enough. Merc had its recall but that hardly changes anything regarding what I've said about the Nano. Its the same as comparing the Nano to the problems Toyota has been having.

You might want to reread all those posts since you apparently have a completely different idea about what I am saying compared to what I really am saying.

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A 19 year old student knows everything in theory, but hardly has got the experience what the real world is.
Oh absolutely! Let's ban all us teenagers from posting anything on topics other than toy cars. Maybe one day you'll realize that age doesn't automatically mean you're right.

Cheers!
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Old 23rd March 2010, 20:52   #123
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Hmmm ... familiar... My indica V2's fusebox had melted and got fused into one solid block ...

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You ae right and the media is using it for filling papers and news slots, which is their way of making a living. Fire sells.

CPH, I am a Tata Motors share holder. I used to own an indica. Our factory still runs a Tata Ace.

That said. Tata QC sucks. Period. The same has to change, the sooner, the better.

Last edited by AbhiJ : 23rd March 2010 at 20:58.
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Old 23rd March 2010, 21:26   #124
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Nano draws so much attention because it is the cynosure of eyes from all over the world. And I guess we are now crying fowl because we all felt proud of this car directly or indirectly, and can't bear to see it being laughed at by the west. (It is a different matter that we can deride it - it is "our" car!).
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I don't think people would fuss so much if this had happened with the Indica Vista or the Indigo manza!


Gansan: Which side are you on? I think West has given an unbiased opinion on Nano. No major news site has said anything bad about nano expect these fires. Even on blogs I see a lot of non-indians cheering for Nano than indians do on this forum. If any one says it is cheap I am OK with that. But when some say it's not a complete car I don't agree with them. I only read indians say it is not a complete car. I never read this from a non indian forum.

(It is a different matter that we can deride it - it is "our" car!).

Unfortunately that is the attitude we desi's have. It's our company let's deride it.
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Old 24th March 2010, 06:28   #125
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Gansan: Which side are you on? I think West has given an unbiased opinion on Nano. No major news site has said anything bad about nano expect these fires. Even on blogs I see a lot of non-indians cheering for Nano than indians do on this forum. If any one says it is cheap I am OK with that. But when some say it's not a complete car I don't agree with them. I only read indians say it is not a complete car. I never read this from a non indian forum.

(It is a different matter that we can deride it - it is "our" car!).

Unfortunately that is the attitude we desi's have. It's our company let's deride it.
I think the bottom line is that the car should not be catching fire due to manufacturing defects.

TATA should definitely investigate and bring out the TRUTH. And if there is any conspiracy aka TATA buses catching fire in delhi, it should be proven and culprits should put behind bars.
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Old 24th March 2010, 06:37   #126
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Unfortunately that is the attitude we desi's have. It's our company let's deride it.
I see it differently. I think that the time has come for Indian companies to be not given any leeway just because they are desi. And I think that this is something that all of us do when, given a valid choice, very few of us will buy an inferior Indian made product just because it is made in India. That kind of derision is what affects the fortunes of companies a lot more than verbal derision. And that is fair enough, I would say. Yes, Japanese and Koreans behave differently, but that is also because their companies cater to their needs better than most outsiders do. And their culture and circumstance is such that this behaviour does not breed as much complacency in their companies as it would tend to do in most other companies in the world, including India. And I think Ratan Tata would himself not subscribe to the policy of buying something just because it is Indian. And if he did, that would be huge hypocrisy, given his personal buying of things such as clothes and cars!
I personally also agree that Tata Motors quality sucks and their cars are not currently good enough for my spend, given the options. On the other hand, I have bought Titan watches almost exclusively for over 20 years now, because they are world class at their price points.
Finally, on other threads, there is equally vocal criticism of other MNC makes. Skoda, Fiat, even Mercedes, among others. This happens to be a Nano thread, so that is not visible here, obviously.

Last edited by Sawyer : 24th March 2010 at 06:38.
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Old 24th March 2010, 09:37   #127
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[quote=CPH;1799196]McLaren was one car and Mercedes was the other car I was talking about.

658,000 cars from Mercedes with lethal brakes I am talking about. This was an easy on to sort.quote]

Very simple Dear CPH,
If 658,000 cars from Merc with lethal brakes and still they are selling cars in the market just means those who still buy Mercs are 'idiots'. Why the buyers / potential buyers didn't talk about the problem in public forum, creat awareness of the problem and force Merc to investigate / recall / replace / compensate? Is it because they still beleive the quality of Merc? Is it the Brand Loyalty prevailed over quality? Is it intelligent marketing techniques of Merc that overwhelmed the buyers? What is it?

Whatever it is, it is not going to happen in India. Just because Merc and Toyota got away with their defects, Tata is not going to get away. This is one society where news spreads very fast and people are well informed about such incidents and situations.

If 9 people die in Europe or one dies in India, life is life. And we are talking about the possible fatalities that could potentially happen and trying to prevent it. Don't call it 'speculation'. Unless we people talk, those so-called 'auto-giants' would care a damn about fixing it and nobody could vouch for that better than you, being an 'insider' of this industry. (What would be your reaction if God Forbid, those 2 guys in that Nano were burnt to death? Your reaction would still be the same?)

One thing I fail to understand is, why are you bringing in Mercedes and Toyota here as examples. The case here is very simple and clear.
- A company launches a new model low cost car and is going to full mass production very soon.
- the booking sores and waiting list is longer than China Wall.
- 4 of delivered cars go up in flames for different reasons.
- These cars are the cheapest in the world.
- These cars have very basic safety equipment and bare minimum quality components.
- These cars are going to be produced in massive volumes like no other cars in the world.
- These cars are going to be sold in tens of thousands every month.
- These cars are going to carry millions of common people who are no 'auto experts' nor 'millionaires' who could buy another one by credit card.

Now, this is a unique situation,affecting poor masses wherein there is going to be little support from any angle. That is the prime reason why we are worried, concerned and discussing all possiblities of preventing any major disasters in near future.

Comparison with Mclaren / Merc / Toyota / Mitsubishi and this case is totally irrelevant and whatever happened in those case does not constitute any precedence nor example for us to follow.

We have a car maker whose car is the most awaited and going to be top selling cars, for the masses. The initial deliveries have problems related to safety. And we have every right to talk / discuss / criticize / (not speculate as you try to put it), so that the people concerned talk notice of the 'magnitude of the situation' and act.

Finally, I see in CPH's posts kind of arrogance towards our fellow members, as if we are completely ignorant about cars and auto industry and as if we have never been outside India nor driven 'exotic' cars at speeds!
Dear CPH, my humble request to you - people here are well informed, quite experienced and above all top class mannered. And we expect you to reciprocate the same in your posts. Please.

Last edited by RajaTaurus : 24th March 2010 at 09:39.
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Old 24th March 2010, 09:59   #128
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Gansan: Which side are you on?
I bat for the Tatas, of course! The nano is a path breaking, historic project and I wish them success, though I would not buy one - it is not my cup of tea! But I would not think twice before buying any of their established models.

They are an Indian company ambitious for a global foot print and I am against dishing them as a company, instead of criticizing a product. I would be proud if they succeed and give the MNCs in India a run for their money.
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:08   #129
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Very simple Dear CPH,

..........

Finally, I see in CPH's posts kind of arrogance towards our fellow members, as if we are completely ignorant about cars and auto industry and as if we have never been outside India nor driven 'exotic' cars at speeds!
Dear CPH, my humble request to you - people here are well informed, quite experienced and above all top class mannered. And we expect you to reciprocate the same in your posts. Please.
Well, I can see that you are livid, perhaps with reason, but all of this is just going to get a bunch of people some infractions and might result in the thread being locked.

Amidst all this brouhaha, some very interesting points were made, I'd like to draw the attention of everyone to those, so that we can carry on from there:

a. Four cars have had issues related to fire, three of them have been diagnosed and the fourth one is pending investigation.

b. Possible causes have been listed as (from Bhpian's posts):
- Overheating due to cooling ducts being blocked by packing material.
- Having some sort of packing material near the engine that was flammable.
- Electrical issues
- Fuel line feeding the fuel injector might have had a leak, along with insufficient cooling, it might have started a fire.

I am quite optimistic that the Nano will put this incident behind it (even if this is not a conspiracy), it's too good a product to be ruined like this. At the very least, this would get Tata to put in extra effort for QC of major parts.
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:09   #130
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This is shocking, and it is not going to help the Nano brand or Tata reputation. They have hardly started delivering vehicles and you dont see many Nanos on the roads, yet it is making news for wrong reasons.
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:14   #131
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On a related but separate note, is it good and common practice to keep a fire extinguisher in a car? If my car ever catches fire, I am pretty sure that I would be able to get out, but I am equally sure that I will not be able to obtain enough water to drown the flames, and will have to watch it burn away along with lots of spectators! But in my many many years in cars, I have very rarely seen one so equipped.
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:22   #132
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On a related but separate note, is it good and common practice to keep a fire extinguisher in a car?
It would definitely be a good idea. It may get you a concession in the insurance premium, if nothing else! But if the car suddenly erupts in flames, I don't know if it will be of any use. A friend and I had Dolphin cars in the mid nineties. Since it had FRP body, my friend always kept a Minimax extinguisher inside. But it did not help him when the car actually caught fire. He noticed fumes coming out of the bonnet and barely had time to get out with his wife and kid. The car was consumed in minutes. I sold mine within ten days of the incident!
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:30   #133
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But if the car suddenly erupts in flames, I don't know if it will be of any use.
In that case, I will continue to not keep one, because once there is one, it needs to be maintained so that it will function though not used regularly. Then there is the complication of what kind for what kind of fires and all that jazz. Best to trust to ones ability to jump out in time and watch the fun! But in all my years, I still have to see that happen to any car around me or the one I have been in. I guess it must be a very rare thing to happen.
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Old 24th March 2010, 10:51   #134
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You ae right and the media is using it for filling papers and news slots, which is their way of making a living. Fire sells.
I would say the media is doing a damn good job of informing laymen who can get taken for a ride (like BHPian Mr Varun Roy who suffered a Sumo).

"Fire sells" because there are people like me to buy it.

I don't care about murder (to take your own example) not even remotely related to me other than to feel sorry. But a Nano catching fire, of course yes, I will pay to get such news because it matters to me as a prospective buyer.

Further the fact that I haven't seen any response from Tata Motors is even more worrying.

Last edited by diffsoft : 24th March 2010 at 10:54.
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Old 24th March 2010, 13:27   #135
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When a Toyota Prius with a stuck accelerator ran away uncontrollably and the driver managed to bring it to a halt on the upward sloping section of the freeway burning the brakes for many miles, many investigating agencies descended on the scene for investigation and inquiry. Even Toyota annonced that it will be sending its team.

What about our country? Is there not even a single authoritative agency to look into such serious incidents that affect the passenger safety? Did the Automotive Research Association of India (ARAI), Pune send its team to the spot? Last but not the least, has Tata Motors shown any serious concern and sent its team for an on-the-spot investigation?

Last edited by Ponmayilal : 24th March 2010 at 13:28.
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