Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th October 2005, 01:16   #16
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: N.A
Posts: 6,834
Thanked: 1,503 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid

At the end of the day, the vehicle DOES NOT offer space or utility that is proportionate to its footprint on the door.

I meant on the road...and I'm not even drunk thanks to Navrathri...
Steeroid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 02:01   #17
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: NA
Posts: 1,219
Thanked: 21 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by veyron1
erm...you were kidding, weren't you dceite..?? the crde wouldn't outperform the accent even if it was on steroids...the accent has far better performance (in both it's petrol and crdi guises) than the scorpio...


that, is the MAIN reason which has people flocking towards it to buy it in the thousands, most of whom buy the car for use as a cab, or for lease...

but, as a muv, the scorpio is okay; not as a suv, simply because it isn't one- (not in my wildest of imaginations would i be seen in a scorpio on a mountain pass), although it isn't what you would call "value for money" now, as the fully loaded version is kinda overpriced...

but then, i believe mahindra has some sort of a game plan, as the scorpio "phase" is phasing out slowly, what with the rise of the phoenix (the DICOR) and the eagle (innova); mahindra is planning a(nother) MUV, with a souped up 2.8 litre version of it's current 2.6 litre crde powerplant...
Mahindra have never marketed the Scorpio as a SUV.
Relative to what Mahindra have dished out in the past it is a step forward.

The fully loaded version is expensive but so to is the fully loaded Safari. With the price of the new Toyota SUV being mooted at circa 12lakh the Safari will look even worse value for money.

Most people flocked to the Scorpio because of its value for money. All cars end up on the taxi stand. There are enough Safaris available for taxi in Punjab.
bigman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 07:38   #18
BHPian
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chennai
Posts: 46
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

I think this is an interesting thread. Most people here are correct in what they state, but how about a concerted picture on the issue at hand? Let me try my hand at that...

- Scorpio is by no means an SUV, but does it need to be an SUV to succeed in the market? (for, make no mistake, the name of the game is to sell!) We dont have to look further than the Qualis for an example.

- Realistically I dont see true blood SUVs ever coming down to or catching the fancy of the Indian automobile market - for the same reason that estates/station wagons are not popular. We simply are not lifestyle enthusiasts. And off-roading, much more than driving a station wagon is a matter of lifestyle. So, the need of the hour at least, is for something that looks like a powerful SUV but does not really have to perform By that light Mahindra has done what every other decent car manufacturer would do - cashed in.

- I appreciate the Scorpio not as a car or as an SUV but as a solid marketing concept that was successfully executed. Mahindra's marketing department saw the opportunity for what it was (not always easy), planned and developed a product that fit the need and whats more - sold it with panache. However thats where the buck should stop. The vehicle fails on all three of the major counts:
- Value for money (overpriced admittedly)
- Utility (cramped space for a utility vehicle - big no no)
- Quality (interiors, braking & dynamics leave much to be desired)

- Now a topic close to my heart. Are we more patriotic if we buy cars made by Indian manufacturers - without proper evaluation? Are we helping the country or the automobile market in any way? I would say no. We need a buyers market to slowly take root in the automobile sector in India - which means more competition, more quality and more choices. If people were to choose the best car for their needs, the rest are bound to catch up (Mahindra or Tata will too!) In my mind that would be the best attitude to have in post colonial India (I know i am not yet in India, but i am counting the days to be there - just got 20 odd days). We need to root for crash testing, for airbags and ABS and for other features that are taken for granted the world over but not even thought of when rolling out the offering in India - instead of saying nobody does it, so why should we insist! (Thats my humble opinion, at least)

I agree that many of our brethren, especially here in the US, would like to distance themselves from anything Indian - even their language and hope to get absorbed in the system here. That among other obnoxious things is why we are returning home..

But i dont think TeamBhp is afflicted with that problem. Even though we wish India had all the Ferraris and Mustangs and Hummers (!), we still root for Tata when it gets it right or for Mahindra when it does so. So, thats my rather long two cents on this.

Cheers!
balashome is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 09:09   #19
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 538
Thanked: 59 Times
Default

no offence to anyone, but patriotic reasons to justify a lousy product is for the birds. its precisely that kind of attitude that allows industrialists like the mahindras to build such a lousy (in my opinion, uninformed if it pleases anyone) product.

i value the indigo and the indica, and I am proud about the TATAS but that doesn't mean i will overlook their faults.

and i may not have the close exposure to the scorpio as has been stated in other posts and which i do value, but i do know a good vehicle when i ride in it or when i drive it. , and in my opinion the scorpio is not a good vehicle, irrespective of its initial pricing or now at its current pricing.

but i will definitely agree that it was a good marketing execution.

Last edited by hell_rider : 6th October 2005 at 09:11.
hell_rider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 09:21   #20
Senior - BHPian
 
ananthkamath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 46 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steeroid
Okay, so you want people to buy the Scorpio because they can take it out of the showroom, increase legspace by changing the seating layout, upgrade the brakes and change suspension components...why dont you and I start building our own cars in our backyard and let Mahindra supply the engines? You WERE kidding, right?


I think AVL worked on those, not Mahindra's tractor engines which are derived from the International tractor engines - I could be wrong but I'd like to have this clarified once and for all with some sort of documentation) was because there was this huge PR campaign by Mahindra to push the Scorpio as a vehicle designed from scratch when it was more of an evolution of various bits that already existed. Let me clarify that I am not disdainful of either the Koreans or the French, both of whom make great cars.

Finally, dont question my commitment to anything Indian - I put 11 lakhs down on a Safari when there were plenty of other options at that price because I wear my patriotism on my sleeve, among other things.
What I wanted to point out is that Mahindra is hesitating on making changes that even the aftermarket is capable of sorting out. I am NOT suggesting that people drive out of the showroom straight into another garage and get the suspension sorted out.

AVL worked on the Scorpio engine, period. And I hope you are kidding about getting documentation for the same. You think Mahindra would let out top secret design documentation. Hell, that s not even available to their own shopfloor engineers.

About development from bits and pieces. Tell me which car sold in India today is ALL-new? All the cars have atleast their drivetrains or suspension components derived from something the automaker had lying around for years.

Even your 11-lakh Safari has an engine derived from the bread-and-butter 407. Again, I am NOT suggesting that these engines are the same. Like I said, development time and money changes everything.

So you bought the Safari cause you are patriotic. Isn't it more because you felt it fit your needs better than the other cars, and you PERCEIVED it as having more value than equivalently-priced cars? Scorpio owners (for that matter, ALL car buyers) buy for the same reason.

I want to clarify here that I am not indulging my jingoistic patriotism nor did I work for Mahindra at any point. You have to give credit where its due. Nitpicking does not help (Not refering to Steeroid).

I am all for ABS and other safety features. Just as I was all for fuel injection and other emission controls years ago. My point is, manufacturers will NOT get off their corporate butt until the law mandates something.

Everyone knows Ralph Nader and his book. We need somone like him if we can't count on our legislature to mandate safety features. How many car buyers today look for safety when they buy? Likewise, how many buyers went for FI cars when carbs were still available? Very few.
What that means is, until you mandate something, people will never buy extra features unless they PERCEIVE it as valuable.
ananthkamath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 11:05   #21
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chennai
Posts: 261
Thanked: 2 Times
Default interesting thread

this is turning out to be a nice thread.

I need ABS and EBD on all my vehicles.(disel is my next choice)
I need the SUVissh vehicle simply because most rodds are potholed.
Fortuner is not going to come around for a couple of years.
I have to wait this out.

But I have been regularly driving my Colleague's Scorpio CRDE in the ECR in Chennai(just to assess it) and i like what i am driving.

Good pick up/grunt, pretty spacious in the front and back.
As a normal User, I have few complaints against Scorpio.
But where Do I park that Monster??
v_s_natarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 12:29   #22
Senior - BHPian
 
BUSA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Bombay
Posts: 5,130
Thanked: 10 Times
Talking

Any reason why the Borg-Warner shift on the fly transfer system is not there in the mahindra! after all Mahindra not plugging into mud is hard to believe!

Quote:
I never said they did. I did admit its a fault.
Then why dont M n M rectify it! Instead of just removing cosmetic changes to the so calle SUV? Adding new colours and speedo colours and sea trims!

Quote:
All I said was, styling is subjective and everyone, including you, is entitled to their opinion. Even the expensive TVRs have tiny headlamps and tail-lamps, lets hear anyone criticising them!
I agree styling is subjectove! The front looks good but heck the rear is like all Mahindras are! Just with a little change of design showing no effort gone in there!

Quote:
Thats like saying the present Porsche 911 Turbo dates back to the original VW Beetle
Now you can say that alot of work has gone in to that?

Quote:
But you yourself said that SUVs are bought to carry people. By your definition, SUV = MUV. Which brings us to a known fact:
SUVs are meant to carry people in car like comfort with car dynamics! Hence SUV is not equal to MUV which are just a people carrier!

Quote:
Show me SUV-owning people who genuinely do off-roading atleast once a week (heck, even a month).
GTO

Quote:
People buy SUVs for their poser value and for their supposed "durability" and "good ride" on our moon-crater like roads.
I think Sedans posses more value the scorpios!

Quote:
Crash testing is a procedure that tests the STRUCTURAL integrity of a holistic vehicle under controlled conditions. And in the Scorpio, STRUCTURAL means "including the chassis".
Thats what i meant! Body aka Structure! As you had mentioned before that cars have different specs when they come to India but their Structure is same! Isint it! Safety is tested on how their body and structure is! Where also the Scorpio fails!

Quote:
That means, the Qualis owner (typically a taxi operator) can kiss his savings good-bye when it comes time for the next major overhaul.
What do you mean to say! Please explain! V12 are you listening??

Quote:
so you want people to buy the Scorpio because they can take it out of the showroom, increase legspace by changing the seating layout, upgrade the brakes and change suspension components...why dont you and I start building our own cars in our backyard and let Mahindra supply the engines?
And since you said that things can be changed why dont mahindra do it themselves and where can you get the above job done?

Also at 9.5Lacs price for top of the line SLX i will have to put 30K on alloys, 50K on 4 by 4, and all expenditure on handling and brakes will make me pay more and go for a Safari or since 4 by 4 not there in Scorpio then why not an Innova!

I think i need to start a thread which car is better Scorpio or San Strom


Quote:
The fully loaded version is expensive but so to is the fully loaded Safari.
But the fully loaded Safari has ABS, Airbags, Reversing Camera, DVD player with twin screens, Shift on the fly 4 by 4, MP3 CD changer, Alloy wheels and many more!

Wheras the Safari which is priced against the top of the line Scorpio can boost of Better ride and handling!

Quote:
There are enough Safaris available for taxi in Punjab.
Thats subjective of how a car is! There are so many Accords and E220s in Mumbai as Taxis! Also since there are safari taxis it goes to show it is more comfortable has a better ride and is more efficient!

Quote:
Scorpio is by no means an SUV, but does it need to be an SUV to succeed in the market? (for, make no mistake, the name of the game is to sell!) We dont have to look further than the Qualis for an example
people buy SUVs only for off roading! Atleast i would!

And as far as patriotisem is concerned then why the heck dont people buy themselves a Tata Sumo which is a cheaper option then a Scorpio and is Indian too!

Quote:
I am all for ABS and other safety features. Just as I was all for fuel injection and other emission controls years ago. My point is, manufacturers will NOT get off their corporate butt until the law mandates something.
Well when koreans(read hyundai) can do it why cant M N M! Infact Accent CRDi was one of the first Common Railed car in our country but the law didnot make it compulsary! All hyundai cars are equipped with ABS! No law states it should! Atleast give us an option M n M!

Also the Endeavour is bigger and wider then the Scorpio but its lighter then the Scorpio! Scorpio also suffers with obesity and still is not ground hugging or stable!

Post 26/7 Off roading has become a daily affair for Mumbaikars!

Last edited by BUSA : 6th October 2005 at 12:39.
BUSA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 13:13   #23
BANNED
 
dadudeonfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai - bandra
Posts: 367
Thanked: Once
Default

Message deleted : You have been warned before. Consider this your final warning. We do not encourage posting on under-age driving. Especially under-age and FAST driving
dadudeonfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 13:42   #24
Senior - BHPian
 
normally_crazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 4,367
Thanked: 387 Times
Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by dadudeonfire
i own 1...and trust me guys...its awesome fun to drive that
the speed at which the car reaches 130-140 is constant..driving it is too too easy and u feel like as if u own the road man......

i raced with an accent once...straight road...early morning...i gave a cut (was in a hurry)..and he thought i wanted to race...some guy around 20-21 yr old...green acccent petrol...could make out how much he was zooming and revving to go ahead...he got close overtook me ..but then within few seconds i took him again...was driving at around 130-140...

and 1 more thing...this car reaches 120-130-140 without being my top speed when i was driving at marine drive...9 people in the car = 140
dadude ,

the Scorpio lulls you into a feeling of power and owning a road with that grunt it has ....but racing at 130-140 KMPH with a accent ..FOOLISH THING TO DO.

And yeah 120-130-140 KMPH with 9 people on Marine Drive - Heck you really like to live your life on a sword's edge and put others in danger too (I'm not implying you are a bad driver or anything - its not worth in a Scorpio). What a foolish thing to do man - we all know how the Handling of the Scorpio is !

Last edited by normally_crazy : 6th October 2005 at 13:43.
normally_crazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 13:45   #25
Senior - BHPian
 
ananthkamath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 1,194
Thanked: 46 Times
Default

Busa, everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I know you don't like the Scorpio very much, and I respect that. But that doesnt mean you can browbeat others to follow your opinion.

All you are doing is selectively picking out things from others posts and slamming them one by one, including the people who support your viewpoint.

1) Mahindra are the best people to vent your ire at. So go ask them why they dont rectify the fault. All I said was they haven't rectified them. How would I know why they didn't?

2) Subjective means "resulting from feelings". So this means that while you may think the Scorpio's backside is crappy, millions of other people might not! So don't go about saying no effort went in there: if you don't know about it, don't talk about it.

3) I don't know what you mean by this.

4) Ok so now your definition of SUV is SUV = MUV+ car-like dynamics+ 4-wheel drive. Fine. No issues.

5) GTO has an SUV? I thought he has a REAL off-roader rather than a overweight wannabe poser. Even if he does, thats ONE member.

People who are really passionate about off-roading in India are members of an elite (read small in numbers) group.

6) Thats what you think. The thousands of people who bought the Scorpio for its value wouldn't agree.

7) If a crash test hasn't been done, how do you know the Scorpio fails? Are you tapped into the cosmos? To know that it would fail if it were tested?

This is exactly what I was talking about when I said we are self-deprecating. Do you know that NONE of the sports cars in the British specialty car industry(except maybe Lotus) are crash-tested? Yet, we find Indians drooling saliva over these super-fast cars just because they are desirable and look like a million bucks; oblivious of the fact that they would probably be better off in a Scorpio than a TVR/Caterham in a crash. Show me ONE thread in TeamBHP that discusses safety in a TVR or Caterham.

8) What I mean to say is, when parts become "in-short-supply", people have to pay through their nose for spares. Case in point: My uncle's Ford Escort. Just a few MONTHS after stopping production, we went to ask for a replacement electric fan for the radiator. Do you know how much the dealer quoted? 12,500 bucks! Go figure!

9) I didn't even say this. Steeroid said (in humor) that we should build cars in backyards with outsourced engines. So check what you say and check who said what before mouthing off.

10) CRDi was launched not for emissions but to take advantage of the huge diesel sedan market. Hyundai figured that to suceed in the market they needed a USP, and that USP was new tech, in other words CRDi. So don't apply inductive logic and generalize everything.


I can go on and on. But obviously your young blood is flowing extremely fast and pumping adrenalin into your brain. So I suggest you calm down and think objectively for a minute as to why the Scorpio is selling, before making another one of your member-bashing posts.

Ananth
ananthkamath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 13:53   #26
BHPian
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: chennai
Posts: 261
Thanked: 2 Times
Default Cool It BUSA.

this is going the Fiat way.
I thought the thread was going pretty nicely with lots of useful info.. about Scorpio.

Cool It BUSA.
YOu have a way with words.
that sometimes gets into nerves.
v_s_natarajan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 13:57   #27
BANNED
 
dadudeonfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai - bandra
Posts: 367
Thanked: Once
Default

arre dude...the whole road was empty....and i could see everything clearly...and while i was doing this...it was a straight road and not even a turn for the cars running on the other side of road...racing with an accent with a scorpio is pretty easy....another owner of scorpio will agree to what i am saying...maybe because of its torque...dude trust me..ive been able to race even few hondas...i mean a proper decided race...in traffic ...open roads...included...and trust me this car always makes me proud...twice i have raced...with 1.5...not the same guy...two different friends with their own 1.5's...and this car really rocked...in traffic its torque really helps..
dadudeonfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 14:00   #28
Senior - BHPian
 
typeOnegative's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Vikhroli, Mumbai, India
Posts: 1,502
Thanked: 20 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by normally_crazy
dadude ,.... good advice ....What a foolish thing to do man - we all know how the Handling of the Scorpio is !
And we know 'the dude' is under age too.

And yeah, vs, I agree. This is just like the Fiat days. Guys cool down. This was a really nice discussion that has degenerated into a slugfest.
typeOnegative is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 14:11   #29
BANNED
 
dadudeonfire's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: mumbai - bandra
Posts: 367
Thanked: Once
Default

@busa...i see some nice personal interesting reason for hating the scorpio...u talking about starting a new thread..which is better ...san storm or scorpio...hahaha....you very funny dude...(sarcastic)
i dont know why ..but i find this car very sporty in black with chrome alloys..and a nice deck WITH AWESOME WOOFERSSS...
dadudeonfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th October 2005, 15:16   #30
Team-BHP Support
 
manson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 3,549
Thanked: 2,040 Times
Default

wonder how did i miss this thread, and for the busa boy i think you really need to chill out a little, get slightly older and while you do that read an ownership review on the scorpio in the reviews section, not going to give you the link, look for it as it will help you kill a little more time while you are growing up, might just give you a brief insight about the scorpio.

to be honest i don't even know where to start this one as there are quite a few things that i would want to enlighten my friends about. guess i'm just goning to take every post one at a time.

manson.
manson is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cochin - Trivandrum (200kms) in 2 hours. How the heck is it possible ? supremeBaleno Route / Travel Queries 62 10th October 2016 15:03
Now how the heck did my windshield develop the crack?!! Zappo Technical Stuff 44 12th February 2015 21:35
Why the heck do we care ONLY about Fuel Efficiency GTO The Indian Car Scene 118 4th July 2012 15:00
Where the Heck is Mori ? reply2ab Travelogues 18 5th August 2010 23:34
What the heck is this Covini C6w???? ArmourOfGod The International Automotive Scene 0 29th October 2005 14:35


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 20:27.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks