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Old 6th October 2005, 15:28   #31
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Originally Posted by BUSA
This is really sad to know!

Mahindra Scorpio Mahindras only SUV in India is nothing great at its price! Its price is going up and features going down! The top of the line SLX comes for 9.5Lacs OTR! But what does it have? No alloys, no ABS, NO leather, NO Airbags, NOT even 4 x 4 system!

Thats not all its has pathetic handling, poor stabilty with a ground clearance of 180(very less for a so called SUV) and the sterring is pathetic! Car doesnot feel safe at all at three digit speeds!


Also as GTO has mentioned this car is not crash tested! YOu pay almost 10Lacs for what? No safety nothing! Only to carry 8 people! You better take a Tavera which doesnot suffer from these problems!

Whats the use of it being called an SUV when there is no 4 by 4 system! I dont get the point with the new CRDe they incresed the proce by 35k but removed the 4 by 4 system!

Its just that it looks good so its selling! But its high time M n M up their act!

What do you guys think? Safari has many niggles, Endeavour overpriced, CR-V not a off roader, Tucson cannot be in 4 by 4 mode above 35kmph, In this case Fortuner i await thy to hit our shores fast!
no vehicle's top of the line model offers bang for the buck, so where are you heading, just blindly go in for the dx version or something, the top of the line models are usually brought in to maximise profits.

and about the pros and the cons i was a total safari man and didnt want to pick a scorpio back then till i started off on a practical approach rather than a passionate one, infact i wouldn't be embarresed if i was caught drooling over the safari while driving my scorpio.

and some people are extremely confused, first they talk about the car selling only due to its looks and then they say that the styling is pathetic. and then one goes ahead with giving it a bashing as it lacksa the 4*4 system which it should as its a suv and then referrs to it as a muv, can you be slightly more clear on what platform are you judging the car?

the car does have poor handling and braking, but then which car is perfect?
and just for the record they did try increasing the comfort levels to some extent in terms of seat sizes and minute legroom.

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Old 6th October 2005, 15:32   #32
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Originally Posted by dceite
Scorpio mainly sells here because of its Petrol car like performance.. Its the fun factor which counts... those small marutis are no pain to overtake with the CRDe engine, and has enough grunt to outperform some mid size sedans like Hyundai Accent (in straight line of course).. besides that, its not too bad on Fuel efficiency too..
i kind of agree with the fun factor stuff you mentioned but guess you went a little overboard with it, but to be honest it could be quite a task to overtake any suv due to their size, i've owned more than one and slower ones so i think i know that.

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Old 6th October 2005, 15:39   #33
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Originally Posted by veyron1
that, is the MAIN reason which has people flocking towards it to buy it in the thousands, most of whom buy the car for use as a cab, or for lease...

but, as a muv, the scorpio is okay; not as a suv, simply because it isn't one- (not in my wildest of imaginations would i be seen in a scorpio on a mountain pass), although it isn't what you would call "value for money" now, as the fully loaded version is kinda overpriced...

but then, i believe mahindra has some sort of a game plan, as the scorpio "phase" is phasing out slowly, what with the rise of the phoenix (the DICOR) and the eagle (innova); mahindra is planning a(nother) MUV, with a souped up 2.8 litre version of it's current 2.6 litre crde powerplant...
well i get around 9 in city, so if i was to buy a fuel efficient muv i'd rather go in for a fuel efficient tavera.
and usually people don't buy vehicles for the main purpose that it serves, how many safari,sierra,etc owners go offrroading?

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Old 6th October 2005, 15:47   #34
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Cool it man. Busa, looks are completely individual preference so I hope no one brings it again in this thread. I love its looks and love its rear too. As a personal thought I do agree about Scorpios handling, but you should not forget you are driving an Indian built Suv which is tall. If you are driving like crazy taking sharp turns, you know what is bound to happen. And again I am saying this like in the another thread, underaged drivers who have not driven the Scorpio in real should not comment on its handling. Today the Scorpio packs a good amount of punch and is one of the best things that you can use in the city. I do agree about the Borg-Warner system and I feel every SUV should come with a 4WD system but then how many times do people owning a 4WD vehicle take it offroad. Recently, I have inquired, most of the 4WD systems of the Safaris available second hand in the market are screwed up as the owner never actually used it. You would buy an SUV only for offroading but this is India. And I actually dont need to explain you that, just open a magzine and read the sales of the Scorpio. About the handling, I completely agree its scary but its no a matter of nuts and bolts that will make it better. The whole astethics of the vehicle will need a change to do that. So you have to wait for a while as people did for so many years before the new Safari finally launched.

Do make comments but first think carefully how egoistic they are, just because you hate a vehicle does not make it bad.

Last edited by Stratos : 6th October 2005 at 15:50.
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Old 6th October 2005, 15:58   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSA

Overpriced or way overpriced! What features does it have only dual paint and irritaing voice assist! Who needs voice assist! When you buy an SUV you r aim is to carry people and thats one reason why people dont want a cramped rear!

Plus i dont understand who disgusting the Scorp looks at the rear! YUK! No better way to save costs then add such small tiny lamps! Even 800 and premier padmani have better lights then the Scorp!



If i am not mistaken there was an Armada pickup which the Scorpio is based upon! I think Safari has better features then the Scorpio. better rie and handling more comfort! better engine!



Is there any justification of a price hike of 2.5L in the past years of the Scorpio! The sportz version is cheaper by 20K from the top of the so called line SLX?



You are wrong! The definition of an SUV asks for a 4 by 4 which differentiates it from an MUV! People buy SUVS for off roading and expect 4 by 4 atleast i do!



Wrong the Swift indian version has been crash tested! Atleast the body of the scorpio should have! EVery one does it! Even Indigo and all tata vehicles which are indian are crash tested! I dont know how M n M managed to sell Scorpio abroad? Maybe their own employees driving it!



Anyother case of playing like Maruti does!



Not all buyers know about the handling and not all are intelligent like you and me to be a part of a wonderful forum team-bhp


What about the warranty! If it aint a difficult job why arent mahindra doing it! Because its selling and they arent honda or toyota to do on good will!



Have you seen the car and its faults there are more Cons to it then Pros!

an inccrease of 2.5 lakhs, have i been sleeping are you imagining things?
and what warranty are you talking about in the above post as i've too had a lot of problems with the fort point after sales people, but then a mail to m&m sorted things out beautifully for me.
so when you have started defining terms could you please enlighten us to as why do other manafacturers offer a 2*4 option?
please get to the practical world.

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Old 6th October 2005, 15:58   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stratos
Cool it man. Busa, looks are completely individual preference so I hope no one brings it again in this thread. I love its looks and love its rear too. As a personal thought I do agree about Scorpios handling, but you should not forget you are driving an Indian built Suv which is tall. If you are driving like crazy taking sharp turns, you know what is bound to happen. And again I am saying this like in the another thread, underaged drivers who have not driven the Scorpio in real should not comment on its handling. Today the Scorpio packs a good amount of punch and is one of the best things that you can use in the city. I do agree about the Borg-Warner system and I feel every SUV should come with a 4WD system but then how many times do people owning a 4WD vehicle take it offroad. Recently, I have inquired, most of the 4WD systems of the Safaris available second hand in the market are screwed up as the owner never actually used it. You would buy an SUV only for offroading but this is India. And I actually dont need to explain you that, just open a magzine and read the sales of the Scorpio. About the handling, I completely agree its scary but its no a matter of nuts and bolts that will make it better. The whole astethics of the vehicle will need a change to do that. So you have to wait for a while as people did for so many years before the new Safari finally launched.

Do make comments but first think carefully how egoistic they are, just because you hate a vehicle does not make it bad.


couldn't have said it better

BUSA: mahindra has made soft runner & they are not saying its hummer beater or anything
people buy it because it was first decent SUV for masses (in terms of price, running cost etc)
& if people buying Scorpio don't have problem why are you caring so much?
its Mahindra's decision if they don't upgrade their cars breaks, suspension, handling
every company is out to make money

also commenting on cars handling by someone born in 1988 is more like a joke (and not in a very good way)
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Old 6th October 2005, 16:23   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BUSA

I think Sedans posses more value the scorpios!

I think i need to start a thread which car is better Scorpio or San Strom

people buy SUVs only for off roading! Atleast i would!

And as far as patriotisem is concerned then why the heck dont people buy themselves a Tata Sumo which is a cheaper option then a Scorpio and is Indian too!

Off roading has become a daily affair for Mumbaikars!
how about asking your teen chick about what has more appeal, a sedan oir a suv? and that just exclaims ytou drooling over the 4.5 liter suv rather than the 5 series besides it.

you think you need to start another foolish thread? well i'd say you don't know how to think, so don't even give that a try, being all cheesy isn't going to get you anywhere?

people buy suv s for offroading, sure, i see the m class,prados,x 5 's e.t.c every now and then coming out from barren land, heard about something like "making a statement", thats what most people
usually buy an suv for my misinformed friend.

chocolate boy we're talking about a reasonably good looking and powerful suv/muv so will you just stop sleeping now?

and before you post any further on this thread we would want to know if you have even driven a scorpio, as a matter of fact any suv ever.

i didn't know bad roads, potholes meant offroading though, and i think even my zen took that load well enough so why buy a suv then?

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Old 6th October 2005, 16:49   #38
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Guys (Pro and Anti Scorpio Camps), stop being personal and talk about vehicle. Personal attacks are outrageous and hopefully, Mods will intervene soon.
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Old 6th October 2005, 16:49   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adya33
also commenting on cars handling by someone born in 1988 is more like a joke (and not in a very good way)


Coming back to the post; As an engineer it is my job to think about solutions to problems. Since my job is so ingrained into my psyche, I cannot but think of ways to make things I own (especially cars) a tad better.

So, if today I had a Scorpio for my personal use, I would care about it enough to do the following things: (technical stuff follows; so those who would rather talk about what they "think" are welcome to skip this..no offense meant to anyone except Busa)

Mod #1: Increase roll stiffness at the rear. I believe the Scorpio can be made more surefooted by

a) Reducing spring rate along with increase in rebound damping.

b) Adding a rear anti-roll bar (this would be similar to what is seen on the Fiat 1100D)

Mod #2: Lower the entire car by 1.5". The crude way is to cut off a coil on the front coil springs and flatten the rear springs by the same amount. This will also stiffen up the front.

Mod #3: Remove the rear jump seats and install the bench seat about 1" further back.

Mod #4: Use 235/50 R15 Hankook radials on offset alloy wheels. These tyres are known to have harder sidewalls than other similarly sized tyres and they also have a lower profile. The offset increases the track width which in theory means better roll stiffness.

All these would result in a better handling car with more legroom at the back. Of course, developing and fine tuning the mods would take the better part of a quarter, but the end result is something every Scorpio owner would like to get done.

Wot say suspension experts? (MPower..)

If this was Europe or America, such a kit as I outlined above would already have been available. But we Indians would rather raise a hue and cry about how bad the Scorpio is, and not do anything about it.

If anyone is willing is sponsor the project, we here on Team BHP could actually pull this off...Any takers?

Ananth
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Old 6th October 2005, 17:16   #40
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No personal attacks guys. Lets have a civilised debate here and leave the mudslinging for the weekend in the hills.
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Old 6th October 2005, 17:21   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath

If anyone is willing is sponsor the project, we here on Team BHP could actually pull this off...Any takers?

Ananth
Approx. cost? Indicative will be fine - we'll budget for a 50% cost overrun since it will be our first venture.

PS: I'm serious. If it works I know I can get the BobBox work on my Safari and maybe play around with the braking some...
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Old 6th October 2005, 17:47   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath

Mod #1: Increase roll stiffness at the rear. I believe the Scorpio can be made more surefooted by

a) Reducing spring rate along with increase in rebound damping.

b) Adding a rear anti-roll bar (this would be similar to what is seen on the Fiat 1100D)

Mod #2: Lower the entire car by 1.5". The crude way is to cut off a coil on the front coil springs and flatten the rear springs by the same amount. This will also stiffen up the front.

Mod #3: Remove the rear jump seats and install the bench seat about 1" further back.

Mod #4: Use 235/50 R15 Hankook radials on offset alloy wheels. These tyres are known to have harder sidewalls than other similarly sized tyres and they also have a lower profile. The offset increases the track width which in theory means better roll stiffness.
That depends on whether we adopt a "kit" approach or a "modify" approach:

1) a) If its a kit the best thing is to buy new Scorpio dampers and revalve them accordingly; Shouldn't, in any case, cost more than 4k.
Reducing spring rate is just a matter of removing and/or inserting leaves, so it comes nearly free.

1) b) This should be the last step of developing the kit cause it will involve chassis mods (drilling/welding). If possible the anti-roll bar of an existing vehicle should be used or else manufacturers like Stumpp (B'lore) could be approached for making a limited production run. Either way this shouldn't cost more than 3 to 4k for the components alone. But we would have to charge for the development time.

2) Again the proper manner to do this is to approach Stumpp and see if a suitable spring is available within their standard range. If not, the spring could be custom-made. If necessary the dampers might need re-valving. Again, the price would be component cost (<= 6k w/dampers) + development cost.

3) This comes free cause you are just relocating the seat. However this means you have to junk the jump seats.

4) This could be left to the owner. But the last time I checked the going rate for the Hankooks was 5k per tyre. If the owner chooses to use the stock wheels and tyres, the same effect desired from this mod can be achieved by using wheel spacers.
But it still wouldnt make much of a difference. In fact I am worried this could affect other critical suspension parameters.

So we are looking at a total component cost of 14k just for the suspension.

The big question is, how many takers can we find for such a kit? BHPians please throw light on this.

Ananth
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Old 6th October 2005, 18:01   #43
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I've never really driven the Scorpio at high speeds, so I can't really comment on the handling problems it is infamous for, but it goes beyond simple altering of the suspension settings. It's more an inherant problem due to the way it was designed and the basic suspension geometry, which can only really be altered by changing certain mounting points etc. (again, can't say without a proper study).

I know someone who was personally involved in the development of the Scorpio, and they tried everything they could to get rid of this problem, but with every change, the improved one thing but made something else worse. The fundamental problem lies in the overall design. And no amount of kicking and screaming from that guy, or the others, could make the bean counters change their mind about who they hired to carry out the suspension developement (and as we all know, it was the Koreans who did that).
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Old 6th October 2005, 18:10   #44
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You might want to get in touch with some Scorpio owners on the Mahindra_Scorpio Yahoogroup. One Mr. Roy Sujan, who works for Mahindra, is also an active member there.

I believe Mr. Sujan worked for Tata during the initial days of the Safari programme. He's a very level-headed gentleman and I'm sure he'd be glad to work along with you guys on this venture.

Give it a shot!
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Old 6th October 2005, 18:11   #45
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This thread is nice and hot now !

The Scorpio - As someone said Brilliant Marketing but lets not forget when launched at a killer price it just ran away with the market share.

About the looks - well it must have some right kind of looks that must have appealed to the buyers else it wouldnt have sold ! dint the older Sonata outsell the older accord on looks purely ?

SUV v/s MUV - is this concept clear in a market like India ? i think not , though things are getting better. SUV's here are all about making a statement with the looks and power and the Scorpio did just that. And yeah no one bothers about using 4x4 , it should only be stickered on for extra attention grabbing.

Handling / Engine - well the engine is really grunty and torquey and thats what gives the impression that the Scorpio is faster than what it really is and its pretty fast for its size. The handling is out right scary no doubts - but then i have yet to hear of any accidents due to its handling - have heard more stories on how the drivers couldnt handle the power and got carried away , so its pretty decent I think ( I personally hate it though).

Increasing Costs - well M&M have tried to up the luxury factor and they have introduced the CRDE technology too - that is more expensive and couple of other factors like rising steel prices etc also contribute to the increased cost.

Overall the Scorpio puts in more +ves than -ves and thats why it sells.
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