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Old 8th October 2005, 12:32   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by balashome

Now, based on your discussions, i gather that increasing the height of an SUV does not do good to its handling. Then, why do they do it here?! Now, granted that they could be doing it just for muscle value...What are your thoughts?
increasing the height of an suv, does not go well with it's handling, rightly as you assumed. the only benefit of this is while going of road (which, like you said, most people don't), where you can utilise the increased suspension travel and enhanced articulation. the other puprose, is of course, for showing off...

we all know about the bigfoot....that damn thing is is just about as practical as a hovercraft on road. but does that prevent people from doing such kind of extreme mods..??HELL NO. yes, the bigfoot was built for one and only one purpose- show off, but then most of the SUV owners who increase their rides' height, do so to simply gain attention, or just for fun- no utility or actual purpose served....

Quote:
Originally posted by balashome

Whenever i see modded out SUVs, they are always done to increase the height of the ride - never to decrease it
also true to a certain extent here; except some "bling-bling" scorpios and sierras, most of the others that i have seen are interested in raising their ride height. especially some endeavours, who have replaced their rims and tyres to 16" high-profiles and also jacked up the height ...

Quote:
Originally posted by balashome

So, instead of modding the Scorpio to make it out to something it is not, i think it is better to look at vehicles built to off-road with the best of them - horses for courses and so on..
true....but we were only trying to discuss as to how to improve upon it's on-road behaviour, not off-road. you see, it ain't that good at taking speeds over a ton and braking's a li'l iffy, as you must have already seen....

but, as you rightly put it, the scorpio serves it's purpose pretty well. it was marketed by mahindra as an alternative to sedans (currently what toyota is trying to do with the innova), as a city slicker that can seat more than 5 in reasonable comfort, and give good fuel efficiency (at least when compared to the sedans), and be easy to pilot in traffic and park...in that sense, scorpio is the best city-"SUV" around- you can't get a more nimble-footed car (or MUV) that's as easy to pilot around in traffic, or park; try maneuvering a safari through the same spaces (or parking lots) as a scorpio would; you simply can't do it...

like i said, the point of the discussion so far, was as to how to improve upon it's on-road dynamics and behaviour at highway speeds....

Quote:
Originally posted by balashome

of course Corvettes and Elise's come so low out of the showroom that there is no need to lower them any more.
har..har...true...same case here for our old honda citys and octavia RS's....

Quote:
Originally posted by balashome

Moderators or powers that be,

Can we change the title of this thread to reflect that we are trying to do something constructive with the Scorpio instead of the other way round?
i second that...
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Old 8th October 2005, 13:57   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by balashome
Ananth,

I was in fact going to ask you that. Whenever i see modded out SUVs, they are always done to increase the height of the ride - never to decrease it

Adding to what Veyron said, check out the following link:

http://www.bumpstop.com/sporttrk.htm

These are the types of trucks I was talking about. Not that we would go so low on the Scorpio; i gave this link just for the concept sake. Of course, I do admit that most of the rides in this link are done with the sole purpose of 'bling' in mind.

Ananth
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Old 8th October 2005, 19:07   #108
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One reason that Scorpio sells is that it s again a VERY rattle free car (oh..man...I am obsessed with rattles)....but have tried a few 15 -20 k + run options and there wasnt an ounce of rattle or shake in the vehicle...(if of course you forget the diesel noise.....)
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Old 11th October 2005, 03:17   #109
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This weekend i did keep my eyes open for modded SUVs when i went downtown. And sure enough i noted one which was 'down to earth' - literally

It was strange to look at a low SUV. I cant imagine how it would ride with all that weight at such a low height - could be interesting.

And i agree with people trying to improve Scorpio's on-road handling. I havent the slightest idea as to how to improve something in a car's dyamics - so i am waiting for the next new thing on this thread.

Cheers!
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Old 13th October 2005, 23:23   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
I've attached a copy of my letter to Mr. Roy Sujan of Mahindra (R&D?) :
************************************************** ******
Sub: Reg: Scorpio suspension upgrade kit from Team-BHP.com

Respected Sir,

My name is Ananth Kamath, & I am writing on behalf of Team-BHP.com, India's biggest online community of auto enthusiasts. I am a mechanical engineer by profession and have worked as Member- Prodn. Engg. with TVS Motor in the recent past.

Recently, the handling characteristics of the Scorpio have become the object of torrid discussion in our Forum, and I am sure the same has been debated vehemently in other forums also. (The link for the relevant thread at Team-BHP is attached at the bottom of this page.)

We understand that the people at Mahindra have done their best to rectify this problem and that customer satisfaction is your #1 priority. However, it is also true that your product has to cater to a wide variety of customers and hence is a reflection of this "general" approach required to develop any mass-produced product.

It is this fact which leads us enthusiasts to concieve of an aftermarket suspension upgrade kit for the Scorpio, which will improve high-speed vehicle behavior at some expense of low-speed ride quality. This will naturally narrow the focus of the Scorpio as a product, but that is true of any aftermarket upgrade.

We understand that while we cannot match the collective engineering skill & facilities of your R&D team, there are, among us, professional suspension-development engineers as well as people who have had practical experience with automobiles; this, allied with our large member base, can generate enough ideas to make a project like this (theoretically) possible.

We therefore request your help in this project, beginning, first and foremost, with your opinion on whether or not it is possible to develop such a product as mentioned above. In this connection, I would like to invite you to be a part of the 3000-strong Team-BHP community.

Thank you for your time.


Awaiting your early reply,

Thanks & Warm Regards,
Ananth Kamath
For www.team-bhp.com


Link discussing Mahindra Scorpio:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7897 (What the Heck is Scorpio for?)
************************************************** ***
Mr. Sujan's reply:
************************************************** ***
Dear Mr. Kamath,

We thank you for your mail regarding the Scorpio.

We were not aware of your forum till now. We will certainly become part of
your online community of auto enthusiasts since we are a passionate bunch of
'Diesel heads' ourselves.

As part of our efforts to keep the Scorpio constantly updated we are also
working on the ride & handling aspects. Our in-house efforts will bear
fruition in forthcoming months. We would love to hear your views after you
have seen the cards we have up our sleeve.

Let us stay in touch.


Regards,

Sujan Roy
************************************************** ****

So, the conclusion is "wait and watch" unless someone with a Scorpio is willing to donate to the cause of R&D....


| Sr. Brand Manager - Scorpio | Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. |
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Old 14th October 2005, 01:46   #111
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Great job, Ananth! It will be good if we could have manufacturers representatives on the forum as unofficial contributors (i.e., even if everything they say is "off-the-record")...
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Old 14th October 2005, 03:45   #112
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Ahh!! Was out of town and looks like I missed a good thread. First off, Iíve never driven a Scorpio and therefore my comments are based on what Iíve heard from others. Most of the solutions you guy provided are on the right track.

The rear being much stiffer than front: Commonly found in SUVs and minivans with 3 row seating due to high payload. To solve this problem we need dual rate or progressive rate springs in the back. This can also be accomplished by using a urethane secondary spring. This will help maintain a constant ride frequency irrespective of load.

Lack of roll stiffness in Rear:
Can be done with either a sway bar or my modifying the leaf-spring F eye configuration. Using a Berlin eye will resist twisting and provide better roll stiffness.

High-speed body control
To improve this you need more low speed rebound damping (funny as it sounds).
The body motion should be bounce rather than pitch or porpoising. To achieve this you need a ride frequency ratio F:R of 1:1.2.
Also (multi)leaf spring suspensions have very small shocks due to the interleaf friction damping, but its not consistent and reliable as a hydraulic damper.

Braking: Fiddling with the LSPV is fairly simple and Iím assuming mahindra has tried this. Suspension might just have not enough anti dive in the front and not enough anti-lift in the rear.

Dropping ride height might reduce travel. Going to a wide track will help but depends on how bad the scrub radius is. Tires.....I believe the CRDi already has lower profile rubber with one inch larger wheels.

From Rtech's comments, maybe the roll-center for the front and rear suspensions are all jacked up, in which case there is not an easy way of fixing it by swapping out components, but will involve a tearup. But Bandaid fixes will make a difference.

If you read car magazines, you hear testers always refer to German cars as having a stiff low speed ride and improve much better at higher speeds. Basically a car that tuned for high speed ride with have a stiff legged low speed ride whereas a Scorpio that is tuned for low speed ride will pitch and bounce alarmingly at high speeds.

I would'nt go down too hard on M&M. The 1996 Ford Explorer which was the 'wolrd's largest selling SUV' was a piece of junk when it came to handling and caused one of the biggest litigation and recall issues in US automotive history.

Last edited by Mpower : 14th October 2005 at 03:47.
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Old 14th October 2005, 12:33   #113
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MPower I was kinda hoping you would read the thread sooner or later...Your input here is invaluable, and much required if any progress is to be made at all. I have some questions.

Berlin eye: Is this an inset eye, which causes the front of the leafs to be closer than the rear?

Ride frequency ratio of 1:1.2: Does this mean that the ride at the rear will become harsher? How to overcome this?

"The body motion should be bounce rather than pitch or porpoising" :

Can you please elaborate what this means....

Roll-center: Definitely there is no easy way to deal with this at the stock ride height. So lowering is the only option but the roll radius will remain the same. What are your comments on this?
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Old 14th October 2005, 20:42   #114
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When the spring eye is hot rolled from the flat-bar its done is a unique way that gives it more roll stiffness. More roll stiffness can be achieved by using a higher conical rate of the eye bushing, but this might affect harshness.
The length of the front limb need not change.
Porpoising: By this I mean when you hit a wavy road input, both the front and rear of the vehicle should move up and down without any phase lag. To achieve this the ride Freq of rear needs to be 1.1 - 1.2 times the front. (Olley's theory)
Roll center can be modified by moving the control arm brackets up or down, or leaving the same bracket and drilling holes higher or lower........depends on how much flexibility was built in.
Can also do this by dropping ride height, but this will reduce jounce travel.
Reagarding frame stiffness, it can be changed by going to a thicker stock (for bending), or adding more crossmember/gusseting (torsion)
Roll Radius? How are you definign this? I might know it by a different name.

Do you have contacts at StumpSomappa? Do they do both coil as well as leafs? I believe the Scorpio's parts are coming from Samlip.
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Old 14th October 2005, 23:30   #115
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By Roll radius, I mean distance between roll center and CG height.

No I don't have any contacts at Stumpp Schuele...they make coil springs and ARBs only, no leaf springs.

So how do we achieve the 1:1.2 ratio?
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Old 15th October 2005, 02:03   #116
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i think the scorpio is a pretty cool car...i live in london and have a lexus rx3000 and its no way as fun to drive/ride in than a scorpio. Its not about going off roading lmao..because i dont think many people do...its about dominating the roads and thats what the scorpio does.
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Old 15th October 2005, 02:07   #117
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Which Scorpio are you talking about? I just reacquainted myself with one, and after that, the Baleno felt like a smooth-shifting wonder...the Scorpio is downright dangerous...

Tell you one thing though...that turbo kick...it's bloody addictive!
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Old 15th October 2005, 02:32   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ananthkamath
By Roll radius, I mean distance between roll center and CG height.
So how do we achieve the 1:1.2 ratio?
OK, gotit. Dont remember the formula. Can dig it out. Do you know the spring rate of the Scorpio.
PM me...others may not be interested.
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Old 15th October 2005, 05:05   #119
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Wonders whether it makes sense to plonk a M&M CRDe engine into the Safari...its so much easier than trying to figure out how to make this thing handle better. I just love that M&M engine - pity about the vehicle.

Wonder if they will sell just an engine...midnight madness, if you will - its 3.30 am here.
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Old 15th October 2005, 05:17   #120
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I am sure they will.............but not to TATA I mean they themselves buy engines from Renault.
Like the Mahindra guy said in his letter, they are a bunch of diesel heads, which means they did'nt put any effort into designing the suspension instead concenterating on that fab engine.

Believe me it can be done. You simply have to Drive the initial batch of Indicas and today's Indica to convince yourself how much tuning can achieve.
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