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Old 18th April 2010, 08:21   #46
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Well Renault finally got out of something which was dead for them. I do not see much value in M&M getting Logan because as a car and as a brand the name is as dead as a dodo. Maybe M&M will for for the required months and come up with a different name.

Renault will now tag along with Nissan, and coming to think that Nissan is planning a blitz in India, it would be good for them.
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Old 18th April 2010, 16:55   #47
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I don't think M&M is going to do much with Logan. They may try to boost the sales with some offer and promotions, till the dies last. But M&M may use Logan platform for all their R&D to enter the car market. They may come out with brand new offering - a sedan or a hatchback, based out of this platform. This deal helps M&M like:
  • no need to reinvent the wheel, thereby substantially reduce the time to required to offer a new car in the market.
  • can directly make use of globally tested and proven engineering design of the vehicle, especially for the core components like engine, gearbox, suspension etc.
  • keep existing Logan production facility as well as the trained work force.
Hence strategically M&M is a clear winner in this deal.
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Old 18th April 2010, 17:16   #48
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Mahindra has diversified a lot in recent years. 2 wheelers, LCV, Trucks etc.. Its obvious they want to get into passenger cars too. Since, bringing out a new car will take a long time, this is a sensible entry point.
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Old 18th April 2010, 19:10   #49
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this arrangement b/w mahindra and renault is strictly limited to the logan. hell, they even omitted the sandero, which would have sold much better.
bsm reports that mahindra is talking to renault to use the logan platform for a sub 4 metre soft roader. but that would be separate arrangement then.
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Old 18th April 2010, 19:37   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartya View Post
If I sound a little biased against Mahindra, pardon me, but that's because I am.
I loved the Scorpio when it was launched, then I saw it slowly being transformed to a bling mobile with zero engineering upgrades. It's shameful that the car feels so precarious on the Highway at close to ton up speeds. Before someone flames me, let me say that I have driven the Scorpio (mHawk) from Bangalore to Calcutta, and that it's a long enough drive to get to know a car. I also drove from Lucknow to Calcutta in a 3.0 Safari Dicor, and believe you me, despite the lousy plastics, it felt a lot more confidence inspiring.

...

I also think that the claim that Renault screwed up the Logan on it's own is a fallacy. Look at Mahindra's history with JV's. Ford came, they left, Renault came, now they are leaving, both prematurely. Both of these companies are, however, continuing in India. Once it might be coincidence, but twice? Don't you think that Mahindra might be to blame, even if to a certain extent?
Do you consider the CRDi and now the mHawk upgrades to be non-engineering? They have also come out with a micro-hybrid version, I understand. All these are efforts which are aimed at making the vehicle better.

JVs are formed by the foreign companies entering India with the sole intention of gaining a foothold in the Indian market quickly. The JV allows them to tap the marketing and distribution network of the Indian partner, while the Indian partner gains advanced technical knowledge about the products. Once the purpose of the JV has been fulfilled, there's little point in continuing with it. Ford exited the JV when they were confident of going alone based on the Escort and Orion brands. Renault realized the JV cannot survive so they are exiting. How does that place the fault on Mahindras?

Renault's partnership with Bajaj over the ultra-small car has also run into troubled waters. Also they are talking to Ashok Leyland for possibilities of developing an ultra-small car, based on website reports. This means they have been talking to two different companies for essentially the same product. This could indicate indecisiveness where Renault still don't feel confident of partnering with just one company and make it successful. You also need to understand that Renault is after all a French company, and they may not understand the Indian market as well. It would be ambitious to say Mahindras, who have so far been successful with all their models, have screwed up a good product such as Logan where they were mainly instrumental in implementation and not design.
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Old 18th April 2010, 19:51   #51
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Originally Posted by ashutoshb View Post
'Refresh' can mean a lot of things.. and it will certainly not be adding just a set of new wheel caps. Since we all do not know the finer details of the deal, let us assume, Mahindra which couldn't make changes it wanted earlier, can do now freely. What all changes it would do, only time would tell.
It's only a license to produce, not to re-engineer. Within this context M&M won't be free to make any changes they like. The most they can do is launch different variants, from bare bones to fully loaded.
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Old 18th April 2010, 20:06   #52
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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Do you consider the CRDi and now the mHawk upgrades to be non-engineering? They have also come out with a micro-hybrid version, I understand. All these are efforts which are aimed at making the vehicle better.
Dude,micro hybrid is no rocket science! While I accept that the mHawk and mEagle are considerable engineering updates by M&M,what's unacceptable is the Scorp still handles like a boat.And Mahindra have done very little to rectify that.

Coming to the Logan,I don't know who's at fault in the JV,but its quite obvious that the positioning of the car in India was too high.I remember reading that the Dacia Logan when launched in Romania used to retail for around 2.5 lakhs INR there! It was designed as a simple,bare-bones and utilitarian three box car catering mainly to eastern Europe.The mostly flat panels on the bland exterior,the flat interior styling and cost cutting all around say it all.

A car like that simply wouldn't have done well in India,being sold at more than twice its conceived price,with just some extra chrome on the grille and a redesigned front bumper.It simply lacks panache.Period.
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Old 18th April 2010, 20:25   #53
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Originally Posted by AyAn! View Post
Coming to the Logan,I don't know who's at fault in the JV,but its quite obvious that the positioning of the car in India was too high.I remember reading that the Dacia Logan when launched in Romania used to retail for around 2.5 lakhs INR there! It was designed as a simple,bare-bones and utilitarian three box car catering mainly to eastern Europe.The mostly flat panels on the bland exterior,the flat interior styling and cost cutting all around say it all.

A car like that simply wouldn't have done well in India,being sold at more than twice its conceived price,with just some extra chrome on the grille and a redesigned front bumper.It simply lacks panache.Period.
My belief is this is exactly the point of conflict between the M&M - Renault JV, where M&M were not happy about the pricing of the Logan, and Renault wouldn't budge from their stand. This is where an understanding of the market is hugely important. Do you want to position your car as a premium sedan and create a niche segment for your brand, but risk losing it if it doesn't appeal to the customers? Or do you want to position it as a value for money proposition with variants for every budget? Also once you have launched a model, how long do you want to wait before launching updates or newer models/variants? It's precisely these issues which have led to the JV being terminated, I feel.
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Old 18th April 2010, 20:38   #54
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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
My belief is this is exactly the point of conflict between the M&M - Renault JV, where M&M were not happy about the pricing of the Logan, and Renault wouldn't budge from their stand. This is where an understanding of the market is hugely important. Do you want to position your car as a premium sedan and create a niche segment for your brand, but risk losing it if it doesn't appeal to the customers? Or do you want to position it as a value for money proposition with variants for every budget? Also once you have launched a model, how long do you want to wait before launching updates or newer models/variants? It's precisely these issues which have led to the JV being terminated, I feel.
So Renault thought they could take us Indians for a ride by pricing an ultra-basic,bland car more than twice its original tag,just by campaigning it as a 'wide-body' car!? Serves them right. Since M&M had a thorough knowledge of the market initially,they should have known that the JV would ultimately fall out.

It maybe spacious and can seat three abreast at the rear comfortably,but the 'wide-bodied' Logan is not a premium sedan.Its just too basic and lacks appeal.Renault should have known that and positioned it as a budget vehicle.
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Old 18th April 2010, 21:51   #55
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It is nice to hear this news, but what exactly did mahindra see in the Logan which made them adopt it. I understand they don't need to engineer something from scratch & also they cannot go wrong in getting this right..

Ride quality - it feels like a carpet, it is top notch when I recently traveled on one of the meru cabs in Bangalore.

Engine - won't this be outdated if they come out with refreshed logan.

transmission - ???

Last edited by Mr_Bean : 18th April 2010 at 21:53.
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Old 18th April 2010, 22:13   #56
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Engine - won't this be outdated if they come out with refreshed logan.
What about the engines of the Alto, Wagon R and Eeco? The Logan engine is ultra modern compared to these.
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Old 18th April 2010, 22:28   #57
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What about the engines of the Alto, Wagon R and Eeco? The Logan engine is ultra modern compared to these.
Very true for petrol, but how about when diesel is taken into perspective?
Definitely MM is not looking for sales with petrol versions
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Old 18th April 2010, 22:50   #58
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Originally Posted by Mr_Bean View Post
Very true for petrol, but how about when diesel is taken into perspective?
Definitely MM is not looking for sales with petrol versions
Yes. MM wont be thinking much about Petrol versions where their strength and expertise lies in diesel products
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Old 18th April 2010, 23:03   #59
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Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
It's only a license to produce, not to re-engineer. Within this context M&M won't be free to make any changes they like. The most they can do is launch different variants, from bare bones to fully loaded.
From the press release:

“The new agreement between Mahindra and Renault will give us the opportunity to chart out a new strategy to help drive the Logan brand in India which will also include engineering changes, in keeping with customer requirements,” said Dr. Pawan Goenka, President, Automotive & Farm Equipment Sectors, Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd.

Source: Latest Press Releases - Mahindra and Renault Announce Restructuring of their JV Mahindra Renault Pvt Ltd
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Old 18th April 2010, 23:28   #60
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Originally Posted by ashutoshb View Post
From the press release:

...
Thanks Ashish for the link. From the text of the press release I guess I stand corrected.
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