Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 18th April 2010, 23:37   #61
Senior - BHPian
 
Amartya's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Evanston
Posts: 1,699
Thanked: 376 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by honeybee View Post
Do you consider the CRDi and now the mHawk upgrades to be non-engineering? They have also come out with a micro-hybrid version, I understand. All these are efforts which are aimed at making the vehicle better.

JVs are formed by the foreign companies entering India with the sole intention of gaining a foothold in the Indian market quickly. The JV allows them to tap the marketing and distribution network of the Indian partner, while the Indian partner gains advanced technical knowledge about the products.
\It would be ambitious to say Mahindras, who have so far been successful with all their models, have screwed up a good product such as Logan where they were mainly instrumental in implementation and not design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AyAn! View Post
Dude,micro hybrid is no rocket science! While I accept that the mHawk and mEagle are considerable engineering updates by M&M,what's unacceptable is the Scorp still handles like a boat.And Mahindra have done very little to rectify that.

Coming to the Logan,I don't know who's at fault in the JV,but its quite obvious that the positioning of the car in India was too high.I remember reading that the Dacia Logan when launched in Romania used to retail for around 2.5 lakhs INR there! It was designed as a simple,bare-bones and utilitarian three box car catering mainly to eastern Europe.The mostly flat panels on the bland exterior,the flat interior styling and cost cutting all around say it all.

A car like that simply wouldn't have done well in India,being sold at more than twice its conceived price,with just some extra chrome on the grille and a redesigned front bumper.It simply lacks panache.Period.
Thanks Ayan for getting my point across. That is exactly what I meant. The mHawk and mEagle, the mEagle is mainly a rebadge job, the mHawk was developed by AVL, however I do give Mahindra credit for it.

@Honeybee - I do agree with your basic point of the JVs, you have a very valid point there. However, the Escort Orion was almost a sales dud and Ford hardly used Mahindra's service network. Also, in my opinion, Mahindra knows how to make and sell a UV in the Indian market, though I still think their quality and engineering are highly suspect, but they are clueless about cars. While I do not know enough, to squarely blame Mahindra for the debacle, neither do I know that only Renault is to blame. As long as it was a JV, I think both have to shoulder the blame for the stupid positioning.
Amartya is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2010, 13:07   #62
Senior - BHPian
 
MaserQ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,156
Thanked: 51 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashutoshb View Post
this arrangement b/w mahindra and renault is strictly limited to the logan. hell, they even omitted the sandero, which would have sold much better.
bsm reports that mahindra is talking to renault to use the logan platform for a sub 4 metre soft roader. but that would be separate arrangement then.
I wonder if M&M can use the Logan platform to spin off other variants? The Sandero would have made sense for India. It would have given them adequate numbers, not to mention sharing most of its parts with the Logan. But I guess the M&M-Renault JV was in trouble way before they actually split.
MaserQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2010, 13:18   #63
Senior - BHPian
 
ashutoshb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: NOIDA
Posts: 1,100
Thanked: 626 Times
Default

The Dacia Duster is based on the Logan platform. A Duster clone should be ideal for a product below the Scorpio.
ashutoshb is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2010, 15:44   #64
BHPian
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Hyd
Posts: 104
Thanked: 22 Times
Default Some creative photoshopping please!

There is talk of Mahindra in a JV with a chinese company - is this for cars by any chance? -- "A number of these companies have set up joint ventures. Mahindra & Mahindra is working with a Chinese company,...." (A special report on innovation in emerging markets: New masters of management | The Economist)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMT View Post
Ah! Now our grandkids can own a mahindra logan in 2080, by then it will be the 'Logan Classic'.
I doubt the original designers at Ford of the CJ during WW2 ever thought Indians would be still building these (and aspiring to own them) 70 years later.
Just like Cj, MM540 and the Old Alwyn Nissan cabstar....they will recycle logan over and over again. I bet they got the presses and patents at a dirt cheap price.
I agree with the person who said in 50 years Mahindra will still have a "Logan Classic". I anxiously await Photoshop versions of Logan hatchback, Logan Logan Wagon, mini-SUV, (and Logan Tractor anyone?)
vishwas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2010, 16:11   #65
BHPian
 
designersf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ann Arbor
Posts: 602
Thanked: 58 Times
Default

If Renault had a seperate dealer network in place, they would have gone alone in the JV and kicked Mahindra off but they had no other option at all.
designersf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th April 2010, 16:27   #66
Senior - BHPian
 
AyAn!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Durgapur/Calcutta/Pune
Posts: 2,167
Thanked: 850 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by designersf View Post
If Renault had a seperate dealer network in place, they would have gone alone in the JV and kicked Mahindra off but they had no other option at all.
Considering the fact that Renault had the upper hand in the daft positioning of the Logan,they couldn't have managed it alone without a Mahindra badge and dealer network/A.S.S. and probably would have wrapped up operations long before.
AyAn! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2010, 12:35   #67
GTO
Team-BHP Support
 
GTO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Bombay
Posts: 47,748
Thanked: 89,371 Times
Default

Here's some food for thought : Just how much does Mahindra want to invest in regular passenger vehicles (i.e. hatchbacks & sedans).

a) Mahindra is to UVs what Maruti is to hatchbacks. The indisputed king & the market-leader with a dominating market share. They have a stronghold that's tough to match when it comes to building UVs that the customer wants, and supplying / servicing the same through their distribution network (including semi-urban + rural markets). Fact is, rural India swears by 'em Mahindras.

b) The entry-level hatchback & sedan segment are fiercely competitive. No, make that murderously competitive. Mahindra has zero experience in developing any hatchbacks / sedans from the ground up. And whatever advantages are to be had for a local company (cost, robustness etc.), Tata is well exploiting them (especially with great cars like the Nano & Manza).

c) Profit margins are FAT in the UV segment (wafer-thin in the 4 lakh rupee hatch or 5 lakh rupee sedan segment). More metal for more money, the technological battle is hardly high-tech, thus cheaper R&D.

So again, just how much does Mahindra care about the 5 lakh rupee sedan segment? Should they?
GTO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2010, 13:14   #68
Distinguished - BHPian
 
Technocrat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Mid West
Posts: 14,900
Thanked: 2,492 Times
Default

I think they want to be present everywhere in the Automotive market. Their recent Purchase of Kinetic & now the Logan gives an Indication that they want to be an All rounder Automobile company with products ranging from Tractors, UVs, Sedans to two wheelers.
Technocrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2010, 13:30   #69
Senior - BHPian
 
amtak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Mumbai - The city of Sea Link!!!
Posts: 2,782
Thanked: 342 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
I think they want to be present everywhere in the Automotive market. Their recent Purchase of Kinetic & now the Logan gives an Indication that they want to be an All rounder Automobile company with products ranging from Tractors, UVs, Sedans to two wheelers.
They are in 2 wheeler, 4 wheeler, 6 wheelers,Yatch business, had read about some avaiation thing as well. So, they are making the right moves at the right time.

With no offence to any Logan owners, I feel they should reduce the pricing to more acceptable level and sell the remaining as well. Not everyone likes Curves which is proved by the fact that 30,000 Logans are already sold since 2007. May be 15,000 are taxis, but they are doing what they are meant to do - Provide a comfortable & Plush ride from point A to B.

If I had to choose between a Manza and a Logan, I may go in for the logan for the simple reason that I have not seen any New generation Mahindra broken down on the road, as against the new generation TATA's (Grande in this case)

Last edited by amtak : 20th April 2010 at 13:35.
amtak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2010, 13:54   #70
BHPian
 
vigneshA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Chennai
Posts: 198
Thanked: 34 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Profit margins are FAT in the UV segment (wafer-thin in the 4 lakh rupee hatch or 5 lakh rupee sedan segment). More metal for more money, the technological battle is hardly high-tech, thus cheaper R&D.
Not that analogy is perfect, but this is precisely what the GMs and Fords thought in 90s in US market.
Sumo/Safari did make a huge impact in this segment in their early days, only after which Mahindra woke out of slumber and produced Bolero/Scorpio.
vigneshA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th April 2010, 22:17   #71
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kottayam
Posts: 1,081
Thanked: 153 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
I think they want to be present everywhere in the Automotive market. Their recent Purchase of Kinetic & now the Logan gives an Indication that they want to be an All rounder Automobile company with products ranging from Tractors, UVs, Sedans to two wheelers.
Whether this is a good strategy or not time will tell. But new models need lot of investment and if the parent company has that kind of money, probably it is a good strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by amtak View Post
They are in 2 wheeler, 4 wheeler, 6 wheelers,Yatch business, had read about some avaiation thing as well. So, they are making the right moves at the right time.
Dont they have 3 wheelers too? Look what happened to Toyota. In their persuit to become the "World No 1 Automobile company" compromised on quality. Mahindra is trying to become Indias No1 automaker. Hope Mahindra will not loose their focus, In the case of Mahindra, We expect the same kind of Innovation TM did with Nano, in the UV and Tractor segments. There are news that Mahindra is trying to tie with Chinese companies in some segments. I sincerely hope they wont do it though.
teamveevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 00:28   #72
Senior - BHPian
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Dombivli
Posts: 2,626
Thanked: 1,191 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
Here's some food for thought : Just how much does Mahindra want to invest in regular passenger vehicles (i.e. hatchbacks & sedans).

a) Mahindra is to UVs what Maruti is to hatchbacks. ...

b) The entry-level hatchback & sedan segment are fiercely competitive. ... Mahindra has zero experience in developing any hatchbacks / sedans from the ground up. ...

c) Profit margins are FAT in the UV segment (wafer-thin in the 4 lakh rupee hatch or 5 lakh rupee sedan segment). ...

So again, just how much does Mahindra care about the 5 lakh rupee sedan segment? Should they?
Good points, but you also must keep in mind that Mahindras are not about differentiating their products like Mercedes Benz or BMW. While a BMW will never try to build a car to a particular cost, Mahindras may/will. If you look at the automobile scene today, most of the mass-production car companies are flocking to India with just one theme: Build a small car. God only knows how much Tatas have profited from the Nanos they have rolled out so far, but they have surely become a name that reached households far far away in the world with the launch of the Nano car.

Mahindra have a good sedan in the form of the Logan, they have an established network and a loyal customer base who (as already said by you) swear by the brand. What better opportunity than to capitalize on this loyal customer base and launch its own sedan/hatchback variants based on the Logan platform? Plus, since they already have the car in the market, there's virtually no R&D involved in it. All they have to do for the rest of this year is create smartly priced variants. A bare bones, no power-anything basic version that sells for around 4L, a fully loaded version with all bells and whistles for around 6L and another two or three variants in between. They did this with Xylo, where the base version at 6L was the cheapest of its category and had AC and PS to boot (?).

Margins may be fat in the UV segment, but the hatchback game is more about numbers. Today you have a Mahindra Jeep and you swear by its robustness and the service quality of Mahindras. If you learnt that Mahindras were now giving you a sedan as good as Logan, wouldn't you want to choose it over some other sedan like the Sx4 or say Verna? (I am just trying to compare the brand recall here, the individual cars may not be ideal candidates for comparison). I remember you saying you take your Honda and the Merc to the service centre owned by the same management. Wouldn't you also have piece of mind if your trusted Mahindra service centre handled your jeep and your sedan too?

Last edited by honeybee : 21st April 2010 at 00:31.
honeybee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010, 02:58   #73
Team-BHP Support
 
.anshuman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Good-Gaon
Posts: 7,714
Thanked: 8,997 Times
Default

Now since Renault is out of the Logan process, Mahindra has full control over this car. The only problem with the Logan is it looks too basic, the Chassis, Suspension, Engines, Transmission etc are all superb. So Mahindra should start developing a improved Logan that looks and feels modern yet have the tried and tested chassis and drivetrain from the existing Logan.

Mahindra knows the art of developing a vehicle exceedingly well, None of their vehicles in recent times were a failure(commercially and technically) unlike Tata. The only major flaw with Mahindra vehicles developed in recent times is not so great dynamics, in the process of improving the Logan this won't be a hurdle as the Logan already has a very good Chassis and Suspension setup.
.anshuman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 18:22   #74
v&v
Senior - BHPian
 
v&v's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Delhi
Posts: 1,538
Thanked: 1,068 Times
Default M&M to cut prices of Logan again - New price to be 5.5 L from 26 april

Just while browsing ET online , saw news banner

Quote:
M&M cuts Logan prices from Rs 6.4 lakh to Rs 5.5 lakh | New Logan prices effective from April 26 | Logan to be cheapest car in its segment.
Unitl the buyer confidence comes back, there will be less takers even after a price cut.
v&v is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010, 18:57   #75
BHPian
 
absynthguzzler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: hyderabad
Posts: 650
Thanked: 223 Times
Default

Just noticed a news ticker quoting that M&M have slashed Logan prices by 80,000/-

Edit : My bad ... i should have read the comments before me.
absynthguzzler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buses in India: Lack of Emergency Exits, a recipe for disaster? aroonanand Commercial Vehicles 81 16th January 2016 01:10
Hyundai exits Japan, Suzuki reduces U.S. dealerships romeomidhun The International Automotive Scene 14 6th November 2012 09:35
Usha International exits JV with Honda India DukeNukem The Indian Car Scene 10 11th September 2012 11:14
Mahindra Renault Logan In Oman - 23 people stuffed inside 1 Logan serpente The Indian Car Scene 34 19th April 2010 19:03


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 18:42.

Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks