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Old 21st April 2010, 19:35   #31
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Good discussion. GTO, How about including Outlander in the game?
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Old 21st April 2010, 19:43   #32
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I stand testimony to this game-changer theory. Having bought two such vehicles in the last six months (the 3 and the i20) I am in awe and respect for those who can turn things around and so drastically. And of course, a total believer in these game-changing products.

It took me a while to convince my dad to even look at the i20 @ 6.5L (I wanted the Asta, no less) and it was only after he saw the car and all the equipment, that he was convinced that it was a fantastic buy, perfect to the T for our requirements. If not for the i, we would have had to buy a sedan we really didn't need, or a hatch that would have been cramped and grossly under-equipped given the rest of our cars.

Nice to see my car here In the case of the Beemer, our decision was just made easier by the CE. We would have had to unnecessarily part with 37L (yup, thats what the Highline costs OTR Mumbai) for some equipment that my dad was hardly impressed with in the first place, as he has no utility for a sunroof or iDrive, won't give a fart about wood finish, and can never use the Bluetooth feature for his conversations with a chauffeur in the car. Even with the 5y/100k BSI thrown in, the deal we got has left us in a comfortable position to buy yet another mid-size sedan this year. And the brand value of the BMW bludgeons the 20L competition mercilessly. From BMW - maybe? we went to BMW !! within a week.

The Superb is a SHINING example of what a thoughtful product can do for a company whose product in that segment is in doldrums. At a stage, I wondered if the Accord's grip in this segment would EVER be broken. I'm not a big fan of Skoda, but I'm still very happy to see Honda's arrogance put in place by the Superb, and rightly so. And for that one reason, I hold it in very high regard indeed.

Since I hate the Fortuner, I won't comment on it. I disagree with the perspective here though.

Oh and one more thing. Before the Superb, before the i20, before everything there was this one... no, two products in the Indian transportation industry which made me extremely happy. Before these two products came out, no one gave a damn about this company, regardless of their promotion and new product offerings. Also, I always wondered why the hell companies weren't able to see one crystal clear opportunity in the industry - to create a HOT looking cafe racer / faired bike. Finally, to my relief, one company actually got down to doing it, and look at what they've achieved. Changed the game? Oh yes, and then some.

The two? Yamaha R15 and FZ16.

Last edited by FlyingSpur : 21st April 2010 at 19:46.
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Old 21st April 2010, 22:04   #33
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Great thread..

Quote:
Originally Posted by himanshugoswami View Post
This is OT, but this thread made me think of the other side of the coin- the biggest scr.ew up in the 20L range- the Honda CRV!!
Its my only asset which has "appreciated" in value in the last 2 years..

From 17.8 L Ex Showroom to 22.6 L Ex Showroom!!
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Old 21st April 2010, 22:28   #34
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Delightful write up GTO!!

Of the list for me it would be the Superb and BMW which have really changed the game in this segment.
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Old 21st April 2010, 22:30   #35
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Wonderful Thread !!! Can't think of any other car in the 20 lak segment worthy of such praises here .
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Old 22nd April 2010, 05:24   #36
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GTO,

As you mentioned against Fortuner, one should wait and watch for the Yeti.
That I would say is also a great Game-Changing prospect, if Skoda get things on spot.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 10:13   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanwar_26 View Post
A great insight, every segment has a car which rules in it and now the 20 lakh segment has its rulers.
Well, the 20 lakh segment had its "rulers" earlier too. These three cars, on the other hand, are not merely rulers...the 320 CE & Fortuner, especially, are dominators selling multiple times their closest competitors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
I guess Fortuner has a USP on which it is selling like hot cakes. Its KILLER LOOKS. We have to agree that it looks very smart on road. It has rich looks. On that point only mainly it is selling. Also they have a Toyota badge to support it with there proven brand name & service support.
Absolutely; the butch classic SUV styling has had a huge role to play in the Fortuner's styling. Leave the looks aside, in terms of utility, how bad is the Innova at 1/2 the price? Consider this picture from my Fortuner review : Notice the similarity in stance & proportion to the 50 lakh Prado!
The 20 lakh rupee Game-Changers!-fortuner.jpg

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Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
I'm the kind of person that wants more bang for his buck, hence these two purchases have me satisfied.
Its about time we move you on to pre-worshipped deals, Sahil! Mouth-watering deals on luxo barges. Well, lets discuss it on another thread.

Quote:
The 3/C/A4 stripped down versions will really help grow this segment.
What we have to realise is that, in a way, the C Class & 320d needed a more realistic pricetag. Cars like the Superb offer so much more for substantially less. Get this : I'm talking to my Dad and telling him "The Civic cost us 1/3rd of the C180 / C220. Yet, its got more spacious interiors, better ride quality, is as quick and substantially more reliable. Either is fun to drive in their own way (high revving petrol versus torquey diesel". The 3 & C are, at the end of the day, compact sedans by current standards. Save for the badge & some additional safety features, they lose out on the value proposition. Good to see the Corporate / Executive eds now!

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Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
People buy it because they couldn't afford an LC or even a Prado.
What's wrong in that? All of us would be driving around in S Class' if we could afford one. End of the day, we do want to accomodate most of our needs / wants in our budget.

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Originally Posted by ivar1951 View Post
GTO, you have rightly shown concern about the Superb's DSG gearbox. In 2009, these had given problems but I believe this has been resolved now. Anything more on this?
Too early to say, isn't it. Lets have Superbs complete 40,000 - 50,000 kms before using the term "resolved". The car has a LOT to prove in terms of durability.

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Originally Posted by rishi_kapoor View Post
Good discussion. GTO, How about including Outlander in the game?
Hardly. It's not giving the market what it wants - a DIESEL - and hence, hardly moves off showroom floors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
for some equipment that my dad was hardly impressed with in the first place, as he has no utility for a sunroof or iDrive, won't give a fart about wood finish, and can never use the Bluetooth feature for his conversations with a chauffeur in the car
Likewise, I could care less about the missing features. I'm not one to buy a car for its bells & whistles. What's matters to me is the stuff under the hood and that's where, the CE is the exact same as the highline.

Quote:
The two? Yamaha R15 and FZ16.
Could you please elaborate on this, for those of us unfamiliar with the two wheeler segment?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ampere View Post
As you mentioned against Fortuner, one should wait and watch for the Yeti.
That I would say is also a great Game-Changing prospect, if Skoda get things on spot.
Could be. We'll have to wait & watch. All I can say is, things have never been better for us = The end customers
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Old 22nd April 2010, 10:35   #38
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Does BMW X1 have potential to be a game-changer? Can BMW price it similar to 320 CE?
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:05   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
Before these two products came out, no one gave a damn about this company, regardless of their promotion and new product offerings. Also, I always wondered why the hell companies weren't able to see one crystal clear opportunity in the industry - to create a HOT looking cafe racer / faired bike. Finally, to my relief, one company actually got down to doing it, and look at what they've achieved. Changed the game? Oh yes, and then some.

The two? Yamaha R15 and FZ16.
Actually I disagree, both the R15 & FZ16 are much more expensive than the competition with virtually nothing extra than the looks.

While the R15 is a capable bike its very expensive. The FZ16 is a rip off You get a P220 with 7 extra horses(P220 is 21 Ps & FZ is 14 ps) a few functional gizmos for the price of an FZ even the faired version of P220 is cheaper than the the faired FZ.

Even the R15 is highly expensive 150cc, 17ps bike for 1.15L when a Ninja 250cc, 33Bhp bike is for 3.2L

In That respect Superb== P220 because both suffer from poor reliability image(P220 not as much as Superb but still) & offer the most bang for the buck

So Yamaha is actually milking people the way the Mercs & BMW(non corporate editions) were doing.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 11:59   #40
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Can Aria also changes the market in its area similar way? I know its in other category i.e. below 15 lacs. People are bored with Innova now. Does Tata has that potential to change the game? I guess with Aria Tata should not compromise with quality even if pricing goes up. It will help their brand. People should buy that vehicle because its a quality product.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:08   #41
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Agree but then the cheaper BMW lands close to 27 L OTR so not really a 20L game changer but possibly a 25L game changer definately.

Though many are gung ho about the Passat dont see it crossing the Superb even with indentical spec, as India sees safety in numbers and VW don't have numbers going for it, even the polo has not set the roads on fire.

Superb and Fortuner are game changers, but Fortuner expecially could have done more with better availability and pricing to force the hands of the competetion even more.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:23   #42
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As usual great write up GTO. Very detailed analysis. Superb and Fortuner are the game changers for sure!

Quote:
Can Aria also changes the market in its area similar way? I know its in other category i.e. below 15 lacs.
i was about to post same but net got disconnected and my long typed post is gone If Tata delivers a VFM Aria, surely that will be a game changer IMHO.

Any idea if Audi is coming with an corporate edition?

OT:

GTO how about a thread on 5L rupee game changers. Surely Figo and Beat are the one for me

Last edited by recshenoy : 22nd April 2010 at 12:24.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:26   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technocrat View Post
Even the R15 is highly expensive 150cc, 17ps bike for 1.15L when a Ninja 250cc, 33Bhp bike is for 3.2L

<snip>

So Yamaha is actually milking people the way the Mercs & BMW(non corporate editions) were doing.
Actually R15 is not that expensive. Ninja costs more than 2.5 times that of R15. I would say that both the bikes are rip off, especially considering what Bajaj and TVS offer, and should be price adjusted.

Yamahas are always known to be more expensive among competing lot, but also are better built than competition. Compare an 15 year old RX with a similarly aged KB RTZ (if you find one that is) or even Suzuki "The Boss" Shogun. RX easily trumps all others. They charge premium for reliability and quality, though in case of R15 and FZ- Fazer, it is bit over the top.

Last time, they tried to match others on the price front, they ended up with rickety contraptions (un)popularly known as Crux-A/B...Z.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:45   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post

In what way? A BHPian (look up the Fortuner TD thread) has covered over a lakh kms in his UAE Fortuner and hasn't even replaced a damn screw! Recent recalls & their handling aside, I can assure you that the Altis, Camry, Innova and Fortuner have the capability to outlast their owners. On a recent trip to Kerala, my rented steed was a 1.5 lakh kms Innova. Excepting for the odometer, you wouldn't have a clue. Seriously.
I still have my reservations on Fortuner, Just because the others in the segment were not smart enough to hit the sweet spot doesn't mean you can say Fortuner is a game changer. In that case, I think i20 deserves to be mentioned. Not that the vehicle is great in any parameters but it just simply could hit the right areas.

The comparison of old Toyota was on tough and sturdy vehicles they used to make. The new gen Toyotas are mostly tin cans. Most Toyota service centers have vehicles which have been through accidents and its a scary sight. Like RajaTaurus did mention, Fortuner is for people who cannot afford an LC or Prado. Its the brand name and the butch look which makes a Fortuner a hot seller.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 12:53   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RX135 View Post
Actually R15 is not that expensive. Ninja costs more than 2.5 times that of R15. I would say that both the bikes are rip off, especially considering what Bajaj and TVS offer, and should be price adjusted.

Yamahas are always known to be more expensive among competing lot, but also are better built than competition. Compare an 15 year old RX with a similarly aged KB RTZ (if you find one that is) or even Suzuki "The Boss" Shogun. RX easily trumps all others. They charge premium for reliability and quality, though in case of R15 and FZ- Fazer, it is bit over the top.

Last time, they tried to match others on the price front, they ended up with rickety contraptions (un)popularly known as Crux-A/B...Z.

Agree with most of the points, I was just replying to flyingspur's comment as I disagree with him on the point that these two Yamaha bikes were game changers at a price point like the cars that are being discussed.
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