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Old 22nd April 2010, 13:43   #46
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Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
I stand testimony to this game-changer theory. Having bought two such vehicles in the last six months (the 3 and the i20) I am in awe and respect for those who can turn things around and so drastically. And of course, a total believer in these game-changing products.
Ditto. I purchased the i20 and the superb in the last year. I feel that the i20 was not really a "game changer" with regards to price as such.. it was just a better car than the competition at a higher price. It's the swift thats doing the big numbers, and the cost is just a lac or so lesser than the i20. The real deal was that the i20 brought in features that were not seen in a lot of 10 lac rupee sedans, and brought them in a 6 rupee hatchback. USB port+ aux cable, cooled glovebox, steering controls, automatic folding mirrors, etc were not available in this segment till then. Heck, I only have 1/4 in my civic, and a friend has a civic thats got 0/4.

The superb is just on another level as far as 20 lac rupee cars go. I've seen the new passat.. and the legroom is closer to the 5 series than the superb. This one has truly changed the game. I never expected this kind of luxury for this price. Before purchasing this, I was very skeptical of Skoda's Aftersales, but the car was just too good. I just couldnt get myself to like any other car in the price range at the time. If I wanted something close to this, I would have to spend upwards of 50 lacs. Mind was saying "no, dont go for a Skoda" and heart was saying "duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuude.. just look at the car!".

Can you imagine.. If Skoda had a good aftersales network.. how much that car would sell

Last edited by holysmoke : 22nd April 2010 at 13:45.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 13:46   #47
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@GTO- Pre owned/worshipped are best bang for their buck, I agree. But I am yet not convinced, there are mindsets I and my family need to break. Biggest draw back, it's too much hardwork in finding the right deal and trusted seller. If it's within the family/friends I might do it. I have my eyes on my uncles previous gen LX470

Getting back to the topic, I agree that the prices are back to realistic levels but we need to give credit that the cars are better equipped now thanks to competition. For instance the C180 classic was much more stripped in comparison. Atleast now you get alloys, "leather like" seats,etc
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Old 22nd April 2010, 13:59   #48
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For me it has to be the Beemer.Even on keeping the brand value and price out of the equation,its a complete all-rounder in every possible way.

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Originally Posted by channelv View Post
I still have my reservations on Fortuner, Just because the others in the segment were not smart enough to hit the sweet spot doesn't mean you can say Fortuner is a game changer.
That's what a game changer essentially does,isn't it? To hit the sweet spot first and make others follow suit. But while the Fortuner may be a game changer with respect to the context,I agree with you.It sells in our SUV obsessed market only because of the butch looks and more importantly the Toyota badge.I prefer the Endy.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 14:59   #49
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A good thread once again, GTO.
You've mentioned about a next generation Ford Endeavour in the Fortuner post. Will you throw some light on the expected arrival of the same?
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Old 22nd April 2010, 16:00   #50
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IMHO the Fortuner is a game changer in that it has opened up the luxury SUV market. Ford, Chevy and Honda were not able to crack it, but Fortuner found the right mix of ingredients - including the price - to make magic in that sector. Expect a lot more activity as existing players relook at their offerings, and new players attempt to replicate its success.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 17:10   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foodie View Post
IMHO the Fortuner is a game changer in that it has opened up the luxury SUV market. Ford, Chevy and Honda were not able to crack it, but Fortuner found the right mix of ingredients - including the price - to make magic in that sector. Expect a lot more activity as existing players relook at their offerings, and new players attempt to replicate its success.
Few corrections/comments -
1) Fortuner is not a luxury SUV;
2) What's so right about the ingredients? Remove Toyota badge, and then try to figure out if there's any appeal left in the product. A lot has been written about the looks of Fortuner - yes, it does look great, but then doesn't Captiva look great? Doesn't Endy (not the current version) look macho? For that matter, how about Tucson? Pajero, with its two-toned color combo, does find buyers (Have listed only diesels here).
3) As GTO rightly mentioned earlier, two of the existing players did re-look and reprice their offerings within +/-2 weeks of Fortuner launch.
4) As reported elsewhere in this forum, Hyundai is still planning to launch Santa Fe as a CBU - doubt if in this particular segment, there is any excitement coming up in a long long time

Last edited by AlokSriva : 22nd April 2010 at 17:11. Reason: Added Pajero to the list
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Old 22nd April 2010, 19:29   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sukiwa View Post
Does BMW X1 have potential to be a game-changer? Can BMW price it similar to 320 CE?
It could. Question is : BMW knows the market pays a premium for SUVs (perceived value). Can't wait to get the low down on their pricing.

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Can Aria also changes the market in its area similar way? I know its in other category i.e. below 15 lacs. People are bored with Innova now.
No one buys the Innova for "excitement". Everyone does for utility & practicality. The market may be bored, but its the only all-rounded MUV in the market that can serve year after year, with 100% reliability, acceptable ride quality, good dynamics and passenger comfort. The Aria can become a "game changer" only if its priced at a steal. Initial reports indicate a premium pricing strategy. And Tata niggles? Well.

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Originally Posted by recshenoy View Post
Any idea if Audi is coming with an corporate edition?
If they want the numbers, which they do, Audi will have to come out with a corporate ed A4.

Quote:
GTO how about a thread on 5L rupee game changers. Surely Figo and Beat are the one for me
The Swift (diesel) first! And in recent time, the Figo...yes.

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Originally Posted by channelv View Post
In that case, I think i20 deserves to be mentioned.
It is actually. Refer to the opening post.

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The new gen Toyotas are mostly tin cans.
Sweeping statement, wouldn't you agree? Define tin can. The Innova is known to serve taxi operators until 3.0 lakh kms, and over. Build? No ways. The Innova, Altis, Fortuner & Camry are sufficiently solid. Toyotas will outlast most other models on the road and thats a fact.

And if you think the Germans make "solid" cars, please refer to their reliability ratings.

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Originally Posted by holysmoke View Post
Can you imagine.. If Skoda had a good aftersales network.. how much that car would sell
Touché

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Originally Posted by Sahil View Post
I have my eyes on my uncles previous gen LX470
Step in the right direction, I say!

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For instance the C180 classic was much more stripped in comparison. Atleast now you get alloys, "leather like" seats,etc
The C180 was a milk-the-customer machine. No alloys nor leather on a 23 lakh car is really pushing it! Agree with you...if we bring equipment (and inflation) into the picture, the 3 & C are better deals today, than the C was at the same price 8 years ago!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MARCUS_520i View Post
You've mentioned about a next generation Ford Endeavour in the Fortuner post. Will you throw some light on the expected arrival of the same?
Ford will flog the current Endeavour till it sells. Its like a 15+ year old platform and hence, is cheap to make. The recent pricecuts have given the Endy a new lease of life. I'd say expect the new Endeavour in 2012.

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Originally Posted by AlokSriva View Post
What's so right about the ingredients? Remove Toyota badge, and then try to figure out if there's any appeal left in the product.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the BADGE counts. It's the mark of trust & reputation. That same badge has been earned on 3,00,000 product attestations from satisfied Indian customers. Nothing works in India like word of mouth, and no one can talk louder than a satisfied customer. If Toyota commands a premium, so be it. The other brands should probably work toward satisfying their customers the same way that an Innova or an Altis have.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 20:07   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlokSriva View Post
Few corrections/comments -
1) Fortuner is not a luxury SUV;
2) What's so right about the ingredients? Remove Toyota badge, and then try to figure out if there's any appeal left in the product. A lot has been written about the looks of Fortuner - yes, it does look great, but then doesn't Captiva look great? Doesn't Endy (not the current version) look macho? For that matter, how about Tucson? Pajero, with its two-toned color combo, does find buyers (Have listed only diesels here).
3) As GTO rightly mentioned earlier, two of the existing players did re-look and reprice their offerings within +/-2 weeks of Fortuner launch.
4) As reported elsewhere in this forum, Hyundai is still planning to launch Santa Fe as a CBU - doubt if in this particular segment, there is any excitement coming up in a long long time
1) Agreed, my bad. Luxury from the price point only - not from the feature standpoint. (Yes I do consider 20L a luxury)
2) Solid engine, well built, great looks, off road capability. The Badge of course. It seems to have somewhat of an IPod effect - there were mp3 players before the iPod too right?
3) 2 down, a few more to go.
4) Define long time here. Hyundai can't suddenly open a plant and start manufacturing the Santa Fe - even if it wanted to. What the Fortuner has done is tapped into a latent demand for SUVs and converted it into chart topping sales. Every other manufacturer has to be looking at that and saying - "what did we miss?"
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Old 22nd April 2010, 22:09   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
It could. Question is : BMW knows the market pays a premium for SUVs (perceived value). Can't wait to get the low down on their pricing.
My gut feel is that the X1 will be priced between the 320D CE and Highline, closer to the Highline I suspect. I guess we can only wait and watch, which still puts it into the mid 30s on road mumbai.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 22:17   #55
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Hi
Cant afford to buy any of these but did travel in Toyota Fortuner. Very comfortable drive. Though i was itching to get my hands on i could not bring myself to ask as its a pretty new vehicle and the owner(my boss) was handling it like a newborn. Cant blame him. But i did not realize that it lacks disc breaks.
Once again nicely done GTO.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 22:24   #56
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Within the Rs. 7lakh segment, I expected the polo to be a game changer for hatchbacks. According to its pricing it was the first German car for the masses. But with an unimpressive feature list, a rather poor rear end design, not particularly spacious and a set of unimpressive engines, the baby VW has disappointed us.

In the 20lakh category, the Nissan Teana deserves a mention. I had once traveled in it and it was supremely comfortable. IMHO it looks refreshing and stands out of the crowd from its 20lakh siblings. It also has a relaxing V6 petrol motor which i could hardly hear. It is also feature laden including high end safety specs. In short it makes a perfect chauffeur driven car which is japanese and from a reliable brand. The biggest problem for Nissan is that the Indian customer has limited knowledge about it and lacks sufficient dealerships.
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Old 22nd April 2010, 22:39   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, the BADGE counts. It's the mark of trust & reputation.
Point taken! I have respect for Toyota as a brand, individual products are something on which I would prefer having an unbiased opinion.

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Originally Posted by foodie View Post
1) Agreed, my bad. Luxury from the price point only - not from the feature standpoint. (Yes I do consider 20L a luxury)
In Indian context, 2 Million rupees is no mean amount. Therefore, it sure is a luxury for an average joe like me. However, the automobile segmentation/classification isn't done on the basis of purchasing power of an average joe, it is based on relative features of products in a category of vehicles. Unfortunately, like it or not, Captiva/Endy/Pajero/Fortuner etc. are positioned towards the bottom of food chain.

Quote:
2) Solid engine, well built, great looks, off road capability. The Badge of course. It seems to have somewhat of an IPod effect - there were mp3 players before the iPod too right?
Perfect analogy you brought in!
Oh yes, typical Apple attitude - love me, love my dog
Buying a Toyota Fortuner - bear with the long waits, snooty dealers and their bungling with deliveries and what not..

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3) 2 down, a few more to go.
Am loving it.. question is when

Quote:
4) Define long time here. Hyundai can't suddenly open a plant and start manufacturing the Santa Fe - even if it wanted to. What the Fortuner has done is tapped into a latent demand for SUVs and converted it into chart topping sales. Every other manufacturer has to be looking at that and saying - "what did we miss?"
My dear friend, what you are missing here is the fact that Santa Fe has been around since 2001 as compared to Fortuner which came into existence only as late as 2005.
Another fact you need to consider is the existence of Hyundai vis a vis Toyota in India.
Of course I am not expecting Hyundai to 'suddenly open a plant' just to manufacture Santa Fes in India. All I am emphasizing is the utter disregard such manufacturers have had all this while of the Indian consumers - dishing out stale products at exorbitant price points.
But on second thoughts, I think Hyundai needs a better team of market analysts. Despite seeing a massive opportunity out there, they continue to bring in SF as a CBU. Not to mention that the domestic production would start only 2-3 years down the line. You still expect it takes 3+ years (assuming they realised the opportunity only in Oct 2009 after booking of Fortuners were stopped - absolutely dumb IMO if that indeed is the case, and even dumber if that isn't) to set up an assembly line?
This is what I mean long long time..

Last edited by AlokSriva : 22nd April 2010 at 22:43.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 04:46   #58
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I totally agree that these cars will result in better pricing of others thus expanding the market and the beneficiary are both customers and manufacturers.This should be done before because to be successful in India value for money proposition can`t be ignored.
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Old 23rd April 2010, 09:02   #59
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Nice write up GTO...but from ur posts,u seem to be a little too patriotic towards toyota.We surely cant expect the toughness of the LC and prado from the fortuner but i dont think it is even tougher,i mean,stronger body than its competitiors.I happened to see the amount of damage an autorickshaw had done to a brand new fortuner on its return after delivery.Unfortunately,couldnt click pics on it.Someone posted here abt bulletproof reliability but pls dont xpect that from the fortuner.

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Old 23rd April 2010, 13:33   #60
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@ Ahmed:

I somewhat disagree with your observation.

Reliability should not be equated with sheet metal strength. Just because a car's exterior got damaged by a rick does not mean it is not a reliable and tough vehicle. Toughness would also be judged by the kind of conditions the vehicle can operate under for prolonged periods in a relatively trouble free manner. Although I haven't owned one, my general understanding and perception is that the Toyota meets would be a reliable vehicle from such a standpoint.
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