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Old 25th April 2010, 21:46   #76
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Certainly these 3 have been game changers, but the VFM factor can be moved up by another notch by launching...
1. Superb CRDi and manual
2. Fortuner with RWD
3. 320d CE with manual
Actually BMW can do two notches, a 320i CE petrol manual for under 20.

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Originally Posted by ac 427 View Post
i dont think the bmw 320 d is a game changer, because according to me, other than the 'snob value' the car is completely stripped of its feature. i mean in a 20 lac car no bi - xenons ? no i drive...list is pretty long. Hence i think the bmw misses out.
A 3-series is something a driving enthusiast buys from the heart. You can get Xenon kit for probably 25K.
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Old 25th April 2010, 21:47   #77
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Originally Posted by Ricky_63 View Post
If I wanted to share the deal, I would have put it on the forum in my post & more importantly if BMW wanted to share a "mouthwatering deal" they would advertise.
Hence my lips are sealed
BTW, are you looking at buying the CE edition ?
Cheers
Yes, am in the market with a budget roughly in thereabouts - hence the Q.
Anyway, unless you have an NDA with BMW/Bird , you can pass on the details in PM.
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Old 26th April 2010, 10:55   #78
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@ Ricky : Please share the deal with the rest of us; that's precisely what makes this forum invaluable to the Indian car scene.

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Originally Posted by navin View Post
I have 2 friends who have bought their superbs in 2010 (July and August) and had problems with the DSG. In each case it was a part Skoda labels as Mechnatronic (Mechanical and Electronic) that failed. In each case the dealer did not have the part in stock (come to think of it when my friend's dashboard brake light indicator failed they did not have that little part in stock either).
Navin, want to share the experience of your friend's Superb & how he got stranded at Dadar (IIRC?). Doesn't he have a backup support car wherever he goes?

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Originally Posted by flyingspur View Post
Everyone harps about the A.S.S., sure. But what about reliability to being with? The experiences elaborated on this forum lead one to believe that Skoda's are perfect cars for India, yes, but only on paper.
Bingo! The Skoda Superb is perfect on paper; however, the car has yet to prove its long-term reliability. On the question of after-sales service (not at one dealer, but overall), honestly, I've given up on Skoda.

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the accord (before the entry of the new superb)
The previous gen Accord was surely a game-changer at the time. The best seller by a mile during its entire shelf live in India.

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In my opinion it is the BMW Corp ED, not for changing the game in the 20+ segment. But for changing the used car market in the 13-20 segment.

Just imagine when 2-3 year old BMW CorpED's start coming into the used car market.
Now you talking! Best part is, a diesel 3 series for 13 - 14 lakhs will automatically bring the price of 325s / 330is down too! No one (except us petrolheads ) cares about high performing + low FE petrol variants.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Actually BMW can do two notches, a 320i CE petrol manual for under 20.
They could, but I doubt they would. Its in BMWs interest to keep the brand's entry point high (in terms of profits + image).
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Old 26th April 2010, 14:08   #79
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Whoa and to that!

You know why other manufacturers would be feeling terrible? Because the Fortuner (and other SUVs like the ol' Endeavour) are HIGHLY profitable products. I mean, how much more do you think it costs to manufacturer a Fortuner over an Innova? Now, the Innova is already a heavily localised product, with the Fortuner having a lot in common. I'd say 20% tops. Imagine a situation where you can sell a product that costs 20% more , for double the price.

The Fortuner not only outsold the Altis in March, but even got home 5X the profit.
This is something that has been on my mind for quite some time.
The reason why we have Fortuners, CRVs, Outlanders and Captivas etc priced close to 20L is the CBU route that the manufacturers have gone through.

In any other market - the difference between SUVs and Sedans based on on the same platform is not more than 20%.

If Honda can sell the Civic for 11-13L, then a CKD CRV should not cost more than 13-15L. Imagine the sales then.

Imagine a 7 seater Captiva selling for 13L (LS) to 16L (LT). Now with the Cruze, GM even makes the 150bhp engine in India.

Given the desi interest towards SUVs and bigger-is-better cars, I am sure sales would go through the roof.

One more thing which I havent seen in this forum is that Honda (as much as I love their cars) have gotten too cocky in India off late. The prev gen Accord used to seel for around 15L (4-cyl) and 18L (V6). No wonder it was the D segment leader by a long margin. Now with the new gen, they increased prices by 50%. See the result.

Hope they realize and correct.
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Old 26th April 2010, 20:54   #80
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Originally Posted by Asifgrkhan View Post
This is something that has been on my mind for quite some time.
The reason why we have Fortuners, CRVs, Outlanders and Captivas etc priced close to 20L is the CBU route that the manufacturers have gone through.

In any other market - the difference between SUVs and Sedans based on on the same platform is not more than 20%.

If Honda can sell the Civic for 11-13L, then a CKD CRV should not cost more than 13-15L. Imagine the sales then.
The CBU route can be the reason for the premium for CR-V and Captiva, but is that the case for Fortuner? In my understanding Fortuner is not a CBU in India. In global markets its not even a competitor for the said CBUs. For eg; globally CR-V's Toyota counterpart is RAV4, not the Fortuner. It really falls into the Ford Endy category.

And its not always true that models sharing same platform have pricing around the same range.

But I totally agree that its indeed a game changer in India - more for Toyota than the General public (even the folks in Toyota may not have expected this kind of success)
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Old 26th April 2010, 21:12   #81
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I had posted my reservation about Fortuner as a game changer, simply cos it went below my expectations. I was waiting for this vehicle for a long time and when it was finally launched and the test drives reports came, I was disappointed. Those factors I was looking in an SUV, fortuner did not fare all that well considering the price.

One of those reason was the handling and no-confidence braking. Just saw an article in Autocar website where they said Toyota has taken the customer feedback and have upgraded the brakes of Fortuner without losing any time. These are factors why a manufacturer can stand out from the rest. I take back what I said, Fortuner needs to be in the list.

Toyota upgrades Fortuner brakes | Autocar India
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Old 27th April 2010, 07:45   #82
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Some perspective...

I see many responses (particularly for the Fortuner) are based on personal likes/dislikes. I may be wrong, and the OP can correct me on this, but the notion of a gamechanger here is based on how it has shaken up the market, what kind of effect it has had. Lets try and put our personal opinions aside for a minute and look at this issue from a long range lens. Despite its inflated price tag, underwhelming feature list, poor ride and handling, braking problems etc., has the Fortuner changed the game in anyway?

My answer is yes.

Cheers.
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Old 27th April 2010, 08:35   #83
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Default 10lakh Game-Changers

In the 10lakh segment the ANHC is a sure-footed Game changer. The ANHC changed the perception of a C segment car. It was a car that skimped on features and priced in the entry D segment territory of 10.xx lakhs. But it was lapped by customers akin to a dog grabbing a bone. That too without a diesel and mediocre after sales.

Its a case to study the customers' perception about Honda.
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Old 27th April 2010, 14:04   #84
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Moving down a couple of segments and rolling a few years back,I think the Honda Civic gave us the taste of what a real game-changer is! From its futuristic,cab forward design, out of this world interiors,class leading dynamics to that sweet 1.8L Vtec,the Civic was like a whiff of fresh air in a segment in a segment ruled by bland Corollas and Octavias.The H badge was the icing on the cake.No wonder it ruled the roost for years to come.

That was a real gamechanger.It even sent the upcoming next generation Corolla(Altis in India) back to the drawing board! It might have lost its sheen today but the current face lifted one still looks the part. Plonking a diesel might bring those glory days back again!

In recent times I also think we are witnessing a game-changer in the Cruze.With those sharp looks and that gem of a diesel mill, its starting to be a spot of bother to its competitors,Civic included. Its an all-rounder and the car to buy in that segment!
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Old 29th April 2010, 18:49   #85
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Got very exited reading this article and thought why not get a 3 series CE instead of a Superb that I was planning to buy. Called the dealer and my bubble was burst very quickly - 320D CE on road mumbai is 29 lacs! Hardly qualifies to be in this thread.
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Old 29th April 2010, 19:31   #86
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Originally Posted by AlokSriva View Post
Anyway, unless you have an NDA with BMW/Bird , you can pass on the details in PM.
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
@ Ricky : Please share the deal with the rest of us; that's precisely what makes this forum invaluable to the Indian car scene.
It seems Ricky indeed is under an NDA with BMW/one of its dealers or what else could explain his silence on this question

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Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post
..and my bubble was burst very quickly - 320D CE on road mumbai is 29 lacs!
Well, if Ricky is to be believed by any chance, it seems there are some 'sweet' deals being offered by BMW/dealers which would ensure that the CE is closer to 20 and not 30 big uns.
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Old 29th April 2010, 19:45   #87
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Originally Posted by GTO View Post
They could, but I doubt they would. Its in BMWs interest to keep the brand's entry point high (in terms of profits + image).
Sigh! probably true. No 4 cylinder engines in the US period. Not even on 1 series.
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Old 29th April 2010, 19:50   #88
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The real reason BMW sold so 3 series was you can get the badge cheaper.However the fact that Indians decided to skip VFM in terms of features in the superb to the badge in BMW shows how much these brands are really worth.
I think only a small portion of those 3 series CE where really bought my enthusiasts and driver who care only about the 3's engine and handling.
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Old 29th April 2010, 20:53   #89
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Originally Posted by manishk123 View Post
Hardly qualifies to be in this thread.
Maybe not 20L, but the Skoda and the Fortuner arent 20L either. Consider it as a 20-30L bracket, if you may. And btw, the BMW and the Superb DEFINE this thread, qualification be damned.

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Originally Posted by AlokSriva View Post
...which would ensure that the CE is closer to 20 and not 30 big uns.
It's 23.95 ex-showroom everywhere. Unless you're in a relative road-tax haven like CH, you're going to pay atleast 25.

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Originally Posted by Mpower View Post
Sigh! probably true. No 4 cylinder engines in the US period. Not even on 1 series.
No 320d ? Shame. Although the 335d must be there, sigh.

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Originally Posted by avishar View Post
I think only a small portion of those 3 series CE where really bought my enthusiasts and driver who care only about the 3's engine and handling.
True. While I wanted it for its phenomenal driving experience, I can safely say that my dad was primarily interested in the brand. Don't really care either ways coz this way or that, it happened
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Old 29th April 2010, 21:00   #90
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Originally Posted by AyAn! View Post
That was a real gamechanger.It even sent the upcoming next generation Corolla(Altis in India) back to the drawing board! It might have lost its sheen today but the current face lifted one still looks the part. Plonking a diesel might bring those glory days back again!
Don't agree. It was a new product and fresh enough to topple the bland Corolla, but it didn't outsell the Corolla enough to label it a game changer I'd say. To prove the, the Altis was hardly designed in response to the Civic. And this holds true for the Camry - Accord too, the Japs do it as a routine and are hardly influenced by the competition unless something radical has happened, which the Civic for sure was NOT.

Proof? The Altis sticks to the same core values of the old Corolla. Unexciting design, no plasticky so-called futuristic cabin, just good ol' no-nonsense functionality. And it's outselling the Civic repeatedly.

Quote:
In recent times I also think we are witnessing a game-changer in the Cruze.With those sharp looks and that gem of a diesel mill, its starting to be a spot of bother to its competitors,Civic included. Its an all-rounder and the car to buy in that segment!
Again, it's putting up a fight and selling decently well but hardly changing the game. Game changers are defined by market reaction and response, and not only what the car is / does.
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