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Old 10th January 2010, 01:03   #646
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More than 4 years and this is what the verdict from HIgh court. I'm psissed of after going through this post.

Good to know you did fight for this long. I believe you will get justice.
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Old 10th January 2010, 01:36   #647
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I fail to see the logic in the Hon' District Forum's reasoning.

The Commission mentions about 5 parts which have been changed; and still insists that there is no manufacturing defect. If the clutch plates, steering assembly, seats, a/c (leak problem), suspension parts and fuel injection system needs to be looked into in such a short time, and still there is no manufacturing defect according to the consumer Forum, the defect lies in the thought process.

And finally, there is something the Hon' Dt. Commission forgot - the warranty card is a standard form issued by the Manufacturer, and the Manufacturer can produce it. And further, irrespective of what the warranty card says, if the product is unusable, there is something lawyers call "total failure of consideration"; and the product itself has to be replaced or the money refunded.

To bad the Dt. Forum did not say why there is no "total failure of consideration".

I suggest you fill in some more gaps - why was there a six month delay in approaching the National commission?

Because issues like failure of consideration, warranty, expert witness, etc. vanish once the consent order was made by the State Commission.

(as an aside, it may have been better to seek execution of the State Commissions' order if the vehicle was not returned in a reasonable time, or the repairs were not complete, instead of filing an appeal. But as they say, "hindsight is always better than foresight". Execution in consumer disputes is by arrest and detention of the individuals or officers of companies involved.)

It is possible to file a review; but review is very rarely considered or granted, and depends to a very large extent, on the inclination of the judges. Review is essentially a court correcting its own mistake. Some judges reject review applications outright "I will not review"; but some judges are sensible enough to listen to review applications.

Only a lawyer actually and regularly practising in the Supreme Court can say. And reviews can be a drill a nasty hole in your pocket. Nobody likes to be told "you committed a mistake". Further, nobody likes telling somebody whose decision is infalliable because it is final that "you committed a mistake". :-D
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Old 10th January 2010, 22:00   #648
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And finally, there is something the Hon' Dt. Commission forgot - the warranty card is a standard form issued by the Manufacturer, and the Manufacturer can produce it. And further, irrespective of what the warranty card says, if the product is unusable, there is something lawyers call "total failure of consideration"; and the product itself has to be replaced or the money refunded.
The warranty card or the terms and conditions of the warranty are specifically mentioned in the owner's manual in clear terms. Photocopies of these pages were submitted to the Forum. The President, kept insisting on a separate certificate of warranty and no amount of argument could convince him that such certificates are not given with cars, and is only mentioned in the owner's manual. The owner's manual is an authentic legal document because it is duly stamped by the dealer on behalf of the manufacturer.

The District Forum did not consider the number of parts being replaced repeatedly and the number of visits a new car made had to make to the workshop.



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I suggest you fill in some more gaps - why was there a six month delay in approaching the National commission?
The State Order was issued on 21.11.2007. I received the copy on 28.11.2007. On 30.11.2007 I filed a miscellaneous petition to the above order requesting that a specific time frame be given to Tata Motors for repairing and delivering the car back to me. This petition was dismissed on 5.12.2007. ( I was told verbally by the President, that Tata Motors are not going to run away with your car and that I should be patient with them).
However, in keeping with the court's order I handed over my car to their workshop along with a list of complaints, on 5.12.2007. Apart from a job-card copy I was given no assurance on the probable date of delivery. Even though a specific column in the job-card has space where the approximate time of delivery is to be mentioned. This was left blank. No responsible senior person was available at the workshop till 7.30 PM when I refused to leave the place, the customer relation officer appeared to acknowledge my letter.
On 28.12.2007, I was asked to take delivery of my car. I had made it abundantly clear to Manipal Motors that I shall not take delivery of the vehicle unless their works manager was present for a test drive before delivery. I was shocked, Apart from some cosmetic touches and replacement of certain parts, the vehicle was no different from what it was earlier. The works manager then suggested that I take delivery of the car, drive it for a few weeks and then return it to them for final repairs. He assured me that Senior Personnel from Tata Motors would contact me regarding the six-months warranty certificate. The car was in an even more pathetic condition and driving it was becoming a torture. In the meanwhile, I kept mailing Manipal Motors regarding the state of affairs and also that no person from Tata Motors had so far contacted me. They kept delaying on some pretext or the other but still no one contacted me. Finally, after driving the car for about 500 kms ( mostly being parked ) I returned the car with a list of complaints that numbered much more than the previous time, on 29.05.2008. The car was in my possession for these days and when I realised that Tata Motors were up to their old games and just waiting for the six-month period to be over, and yet no warranty certificate or any Tata Person had contacted me, I returned the car to them. They accepted the car along with all the problems which were confirmed once again, by a test-drive, with the workshop seniors.
The Tata Official who was supposed to be present at this time, was transferred and no other person was deputed by Tata Motors. In the absence of a Tata official, the workshop refused to give any commitment, and assured me that they would be call me the next day after consultation with Tata Motors. Since I did not get any response from them I sent them an e-mail on 4.06.2008 requesting information on the progress and approximate date of delivery. In the meanwhile they kept calling, inviting me to the workshop and certify that the vehicle has been repaired. I told them that unless I receive a written confirmation from them that the vehicle has been repaired to their satisfaction, and all other terms set by the State Commission had been adhered to, I would not come to take delivery. They kept insisting for several days that I come and have a look at the vehicle. When I did not relent, they sent me an email to this effect that the vehicle would be ready for delivery on 24.06.2008. On reaching the workshop, my entire family was shocked to see the state of the car. It was laden with dust and bird droppings, the entire rear seat area was filled with cartons of replaced parts and the entire upholstery was smudged with grease stains. I asked them to give me a detailed report of all the replacements and repairs carried out, with specific answers to each of my complaints individually. I noticed the same parts had been replaced within a span of 500 kms ( kms reading recorded in the two job- cards) of running as compared to my earlier visit. No major work was carried out this time also. Warranty certificate also was not given. After receiving copies of their invoices and repair report I refused to take delivery of the vehicle, since most of the complaints were unattended to. At the time of test-drive, the brakes were so poor and the steering wheel so hard that I refused to drive the car and requested the service engineer to drive and see for himself. It was then that he confessed that he didn't know driving nor had a driver's licence. I refused delivery of the car and insisted that a responsible Tata Motors official speak to me. This did not happen even after my repeated mails to them. This caused a delay of 132 days and probably the reason why this was not taken seriously was only because of my correspondence that ensued with them which convinced the court that I had given them ample chances. It was in the interest of Tata Motors that the matter gets delayed leaving me high and dry with no recourse thereafter. It is only my constant communication with them that left room for future action.


Quote:
(as an aside, it may have been better to seek execution of the State Commissions' order if the vehicle was not returned in a reasonable time, or the repairs were not complete, instead of filing an appeal. But as they say, "hindsight is always better than foresight". Execution in consumer disputes is by arrest and detention of the individuals or officers of companies involved.)
We did consider the option of seeking execution of the State Commission's order, but that would have only made matters easy for Tata Motors. Some Tata official would have been made a scapegoat to undergo a feeble punishment at the most. What would I have got? No relief, no compensation, and the matter would have closed most conveniently for Tata Motors. Probably, by armtwisting Tata Motors through this Execution Petition, we could have brought them to the negotiating table. But having dealt with them in the past and the commitment they have shown, this would have been a remote possibility. The choice was between the devil and the deep sea.

These Forums are more of a bargaining counter, where the judge, instead of looking at the merits of the case, brings both the parties together and by some pressure tactics compels them to accept their version or the case would be dismissed . This happened in my case since I was arguing personally that day, I told the judge, that when Tata Motors could not repair the car all this while, what assurance can they give me now? I also insisted that they give an undertaking that should they fail in repairing the car in a stipulated period of time, a refund should be given to me. This was disallowed. Further, my counsel also advised me that by this order Tata Motors have accepted the fact that the car has problems and that they were willing to fix it. He also assured me that since the Order was coming from the State Commission., Tatas would be bound to repair the vehicle. Also, in the eyes of the law, we had given Tata Motors one more chance to settle the dispute.


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It is possible to file a review; but review is very rarely considered or granted, and depends to a very large extent, on the inclination of the judges. Review is essentially a court correcting its own mistake. Some judges reject review applications outright "I will not review"; but some judges are sensible enough to listen to review applications.

You are absolutely right on this. When facts are not considered, how can mistakes be accepted.



Quote:
Only a lawyer actually and regularly practising in the Supreme Court can say. And reviews can be a drill a nasty hole in your pocket. Nobody likes to be told "you committed a mistake". Further, nobody likes telling somebody whose decision is infalliable because it is final that "you committed a mistake". :-D
[/quote]

Fighting court battles till now has caused a crater in my pocket.

So long.....

Last edited by varunroy : 10th January 2010 at 22:18. Reason: missed out info
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Old 10th January 2010, 22:55   #649
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Default Sorry, missed the last page.

Sorry Folks, I missed out on the last and the most important page of the Dictrict Forums Order. Please read this in continuation of my Post No. 644.

So long.....
Attached Thumbnails
Protest against Tata Motors.EDIT Supreme Court Orders Tata to repair Sumo (pg.40)-district-forum-orders-p13048.jpg  

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Old 11th January 2010, 09:04   #650
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Dude, that is the last page of a comedy. ;-P

(I am willing to face contempt for that).
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Old 11th January 2010, 10:05   #651
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Congrats Varun on getting the verdict in your favor.

Its one way better to let the manufacturers know that its their responsibility to repair/replace the lemon. But the pity is, it needs to come through the court.
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Old 12th January 2010, 22:10   #652
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Shameful. Even after 4 years of fighting, the Supreme Court just delivers a verdict which is a joke. My respect for TATAs and Mr Ratan Tata himself has gone completely. What the heck is wrong with the Indian Justice System? Why so many delays? Just because the OP counsel does not come, they will postpone for a long time?

Bad Publicity is the one way these industry houses can be brought to task.

I have read the thread completely in 2 sittings and salute Varun for his determination.

Anyone asking me for Advice, TATA will not be recommended.
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Old 12th January 2010, 22:26   #653
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1) Varun, Congratulations! For a decision that came in your favor. A very long battle you fought without any fault. And this was case of repeat customer to Tata.

2)
Quote:
Originally Posted by KRRaj View Post

1) Shameful. Even after 4 years of fighting, the Supreme Court just delivers a verdict which is a joke. My respect for TATAs and Mr Ratan Tata himself has gone completely.

2) What the heck is wrong with the Indian Justice System? Why so many delays? Just because the OP counsel does not come, they will postpone for a long time?

Anyone asking me for Advice, TATA will not be recommended.
1) Exactly. After 4 years of fighting, what one gets is repairs ? Nobody thinks of the cost involved for lawyer, etc. And what about time ? No body thinks how much effort it takes to organize various documents and one has to prove that he resides in India. Wow.

With so much time and effort gone into, the reward to one who suffered must be higher. Like a brand new car and some lakhs of Rs.
Unfortunately, what one gets is repairs. That too on a car that already has seen so many repairs.

Its pathetic to say the least. Ratan Tata lost my respect the moment he said about Nano is from heart.

The saving grace is the customer's self respect is not lost.

2) When was anything correct with Indian legal system ?
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Old 12th January 2010, 22:53   #654
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No body thinks how much effort it takes to organize various documents and one has to prove that he resides in India. Wow.
Talking about documents , each file at the District , State , National and Supreme Court has over 200 sheets of important papers. Apart from this two sets of back up files in case of any adversity.

GTO will vouch for it because he has received a thick file too, that was required to reopen this thread. Refer Post no. 80.

Still no news from Tatas. They must be custom-building the parts.

So long.....
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Old 12th January 2010, 23:45   #655
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Still no news from Tatas. They must be custom-building the parts.
I'm glad you can laugh at it! I guess you'd go crazy otherwise.

But, even though this judgement just seems to be a not very substantial concession by Tata... what enforcement measures can you take? How is the court able to ensure that Tata does what it says it will, and how long are they likely to be given?
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Old 13th January 2010, 16:29   #656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I'm glad you can laugh at it! I guess you'd go crazy otherwise.

But, even though this judgement just seems to be a not very substantial concession by Tata... what enforcement measures can you take? How is the court able to ensure that Tata does what it says it will, and how long are they likely to be given?

Thats my question to all the Team-bhp fraternity.

Friends, Indians & Countrymen, lend me your ears..... I need help from all of you

Now that we are more or less convinced about our legal system.............

I will probably need addresses of Eminent, Honest and upright Automobile Engineers, who can do a reallity check and give an authentic report on the actual condition of my vehicle, when and if delivered to me. And by sheer luck if that person happens to be The Senior Most Engineer of Tata Motors then I am sure he will not certify my car as I am dead sure that Tatas are just not capable of fixing this car. Khalaas...... thats it.

So long.....
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Old 15th January 2010, 13:07   #657
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Good to know you got some relief.It is shocking to hear about this whole episode. Hopefully they will do a good job of the repair this time.
I would be interested in knowing the details of the mechanic who diagnoses the problem correctly.All the best and hope the vehicle gets better after you get *whatever* done!
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Old 19th January 2010, 16:10   #658
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Hi Varun

The Supreme Court Order is dated 4th Dec, 2009. Has Tata Motors given any indication as to when they would deliver the car?

If not, how long do you intend to wait ?

What next ?..........

God bless.....
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Old 19th January 2010, 16:41   #659
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Just read this thread. Its shame on you TATA. After all as a indian company...TATA should not do like this to a customer on its own country.

Now the war has already started...MNC are in full speed.....
TATA need to catch them in all segment. Not only in volume but also in QC and other segment too.

Otherwise one day will come when TATA will go on same fate as Primier, YEZDI , HM, and many more.

So Please..please...do some thing for your QC department. and yes dont waste time before its too late.

----No offence. My opinion only----------
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Old 19th January 2010, 17:31   #660
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This thread just re confirms that the india legal system is of no use to common man PERIOD
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