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Old 30th April 2010, 13:26   #16
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Originally Posted by febyphilabr View Post
I disagree with you mate!

IMHO, I don't think an average Indian would opt for a SUV with a price of 20+ lacs!! Plus an average Indian never has a herd mentality, cause they wouldn't want to put their hard earned money on some car just because there is a long waiting period!! Just my opinion mate, nothing against you!!
i agree with the first and not the second. The average Indian does have herd mentality - owing predominantly to lack of information. An average Western buyer has access to these information more easily than us. Thus we believe that whatever is selling more should be good.
Also the herd mentality also has to do with possibility of Service/spare.
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Old 30th April 2010, 14:51   #17
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Wow! thread stared at around 10am and already running into 2 pages!!
Are we creating another hate-thread similar to the lines of S**DA?

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In my opinion, TOYOTA was a premium brand: no more!
Why So?

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Firstly they should be ashamed for launching a super priced "innova on stilts" without proper braking abilities for a alltime 4X4
What's there to be ashamed?. If the market was willing to pay extra for a bigger engine, 4wd and looks, then why not?
Just because it has parts similar to Innova doesn't mean it is SAME.
- For that matter MSIL uses the same steering wheel with Audio++ switches on almost all its models which offer that feature.
- When Skoda Superb, Audi A4 & VW Passat can share the same under pinnings with some cosmetic changes, then....

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Now this. Toyota has become extremely complacent and over confident in its business. The downturn starts now!!
Give the guys some time.
They started with 200 units moved to 500 and now 950. They are bound to have constraints from suppliers as well IMHO. They must never really have planned for these volumes.
They need to cope up themselves and at the same time take care of long customer queues.

Last edited by karpusv : 30th April 2010 at 15:01.
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:20   #18
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Umm : is this spokesperson trying to say that there is actually nothing wrong with the brakes and they are doing it ONLY to improve customer satisfaction ?
So ONLY those who complain get better brakes ? It sounds like that since he says it is NOT a recall. Amazing that a company that talks so much about quality says this !! And I thought Toyota was proactive !! Am I the only one seeing this ? Or am I missing something here ?
+1 to that.

I feel that the spokesperson is trying hard to play down the whole thing so that an issue like weak brakes gets some what diluted.

TD and some initial ownership reports on the forum commented about the weak. So, there's a possibility that there's something wrong, though may not be very serious in nature, with the brakes in Fortuner.

I would like to see that Toyota is rectifying this in each of the Fortuners they have sold to this date, instead of the 220 number of customers who complained.

-Pratim
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:30   #19
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karpu, A350,

Toyota was a premium brand, not now. As they have flawed in India and in US too, that too on Quality!

I never said INNOVA & FORTUNER are the same. Inside space is not much or less than Innova.

We made the mistake of buying one Fortuner in the family. 40% of the ownership time the car was at ASC for braking issues. An all time 4 wheel drive car, on a highway with good roads will not stop as expected out of a 20+ lac car above 90+ kmph speeds.

Just because we can buy, I trust vehicles from Toyota should be quality engineered.

My 2 cents!
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:36   #20
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Originally Posted by vigneshA View Post
I thought the objective of this move is quite the opposite. Rather than taking bookings with inability to deliver leading to grey-market premiums, it has clearly spelt out that its not taking bookings - thereby closing it off.
Grey market premiums will prevail as long as there is 'preceived' shortage. That does not even require actual shortage. Toyota not taking bookings can't kill the grey market premium but will work to increase it even further.

As of today itself the grey market premium is close to 2.5 lakhs. We have even had at least 2 ads in TBHP's classified section selling the vehicle on the delivery date itself for 2l+ premium.

Having said that, I also think that short-term supply adjustments for automobiles are not easy. The industry has a lot of linkages with a lot of stuff tied down to supply contracts - steel sheets, tyres, other parts. IMO Toyota is doing enough in my eyes to meet this demand. Maybe Toyota thinks demand for Fortuner is not always going to be this high (a fair assumption) and therefore it does not make sense for Toyota to add significant long term capacity.

In that sense Maruti is the biggest guilty party with a waiting period existing for Swift diesel even after 3 years of its launch. Clearly the high demand is there and clearly they are not doing enough.

Regarding Toyota being a premium brand - I never thought so in the first place itself. Premium is not something to be associated with Toyota - or for that matter with Honda. Premium is something to be associated with the top (in terms of luxury+quality+power) brands of the automobile world.
The only place they came close to premium was in quality - note the past tense. And in the overall equation of luxury+power+quality there are enough brands in the world to kill Toyota.

As for the brakes - IMO pity that India does not have as strong laws and regulating bodies as other countries. If we had those Toyota India would have come out with an apology+recall+corporate cheque book to pay the fines.
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:39   #21
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I feel Quality isn;t something than can be defined. It is relative to something.

Today's new quoted of Prosche recalling all its Panameras globally for some fault with seatbelt pre-tensioners.
Almost 2 crore worth of a car going for a recall!!
So is Porsche not premium anymore?

I'm just putting out the idea.
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:40   #22
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For one, Toyota no longer is the epitome of quality and reliability going by the number of recalls and issues its vehicles have had in recent times.

For the sales numbers of the Fortuner, yes, Toyota knew what the market wanted, made it intelligently and are selling it smartly. People who are booking/buying it have very few options that offer such a complete package with the badge value.

The point here is, what are the other manufacturers doing? Is is so hard for MSIL to source a diesel for the GV or Mitsubishi to plonk a bigger mill into the Pajero and reduce the price. These are Japanese companies for Christ's sake.
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Old 30th April 2010, 15:56   #23
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Toyota has always been arrogant to some extend. They can afford to because the competition sucks big time..

None of the Indian competitors have the balls to take the game to Toyota.
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Old 30th April 2010, 16:02   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
I feel Quality isn;t something than can be defined. It is relative to something.

Today's new quoted of Prosche recalling all its Panameras globally for some fault with seatbelt pre-tensioners.
Almost 2 crore worth of a car going for a recall!!
So is Porsche not premium anymore?

I'm just putting out the idea.
Quality can be defined and best part is - it can be measured AND compared .

Re. the Panamera recall - I would say their quality has certainly taken a hit. But like I said - it's not only quality that defines premiumness. There is the other stuff about power (don't deny a Porsche that) and luxury (Porsche is up there on that front as well) also. If more such recalls start rolling out of Porsche's HQ, you can be assured that their premium image will take a hit.

But they do have a premium image. Regarding Toyota - it sells its luxury cars under a separate brand altogether - Lexus. Reason - Toyota by itself does not sound all that premium - or luxurious. Porsche by itself - you bet. It will beat the hell out of a Lexus - forget about a Toyota.

The key thing we have to remember here is this - Automobile market is competitive enough at both ends - mass market as well as luxury segment. Quality issues will most certainly eat into any company's share - be it a Toyota or a Porsche.
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Old 30th April 2010, 16:08   #25
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ROTFL at this hogwash -

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some of the customers, especially those who shift from sedans and MUVs to the Fortuner, a four wheel drive, may feel the brakes to be a little different because the actual performance will be a different from what they may be used to.
What a poor attempt at covering up that the brakes are, in fact, bloody useless!

Last edited by suman : 30th April 2010 at 16:12.
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Old 30th April 2010, 16:16   #26
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The Fortuner still commands a premium upwards of 2 lakh rupees. The dealers still allot cars out of turn for some people, a lot of people here on the forum debated against this possiblity.

I have driven the driven the new Fortuner with upgraded brakes, the brakes still lack feel at high speeds and sudden braking. I read the statement by Toyota officials in the newspapers, they claim the brakes only lack the feel and most users who complain are not used to driving SUVs, according to them the braking distance is fine. Personally I find the brakes in Endeavour a lot better than the Fortuner.
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Old 30th April 2010, 16:46   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karpusv View Post
I feel Quality isn;t something than can be defined. It is relative to something.

Today's new quoted of Prosche recalling all its Panameras globally for some fault with seatbelt pre-tensioners.
Almost 2 crore worth of a car going for a recall!!
So is Porsche not premium anymore?

I'm just putting out the idea.
+1 mate!!

After all, Toyota ain't no beginner in the auto industry and the Corolla is the largest selling ride in the world. People won't be buying Toyota's if they were all faulty!

Quote:
Originally Posted by n.devdath View Post
For one, Toyota no longer is the epitome of quality and reliability going by the number of recalls and issues its vehicles have had in recent times.

For the sales numbers of the Fortuner, yes, Toyota knew what the market wanted, made it intelligently and are selling it smartly. People who are booking/buying it have very few options that offer such a complete package with the badge value.

The point here is, what are the other manufacturers doing? Is is so hard for MSIL to source a diesel for the GV or Mitsubishi to plonk a bigger mill into the Pajero and reduce the price. These are Japanese companies for Christ's sake.
You can't just brand a manufacturer bad and lacking in quality just because of a few recalls/hiccups! You have to give it to them for being one of the top seller's internationally.

Toyota has always read the consumer's mind to perfection when lauching a new vehicle!!

Regarding the Indian auto manufacturers and Mitsubishi not diving deeper into the SUV segment, I think that the SUV segment has only just started booming in India and MS and Tata will be launching their own SUV's sooner rather than later!

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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Toyota has always been arrogant to some extend. They can afford to because the competition sucks big time..

None of the Indian competitors have the balls to take the game to Toyota.
I believe the Indian manufacturers are yet to be fully convinced that now is the time to jump into the SUV market! They will be taking cue from the success of Toyota!

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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
But they do have a premium image. Regarding Toyota - it sells its luxury cars under a separate brand altogether - Lexus. Reason - Toyota by itself does not sound all that premium - or luxurious.
How about the Aurion's and Avalon's from the Toyota stable? Even though they haven't been launched in the Indian market, I believe that they are as luxurious as the base Lexus models! However Lexus might be a bit more refined than its elder brother!

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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
Porsche by itself - you bet. It will beat the hell out of a Lexus - forget about a Toyota.
Buddy don't compare a Euro chick with a Jap!!

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Originally Posted by Cesc View Post
The key thing we have to remember here is this - Automobile market is competitive enough at both ends - mass market as well as luxury segment. Quality issues will most certainly eat into any company's share - be it a Toyota or a Porsche.
Very true! Recalls definitely will dent a company's brand value if not dealt properly!!
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Old 30th April 2010, 16:54   #28
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Originally Posted by karpusv View Post

Why So?
well you see whatever way you take it Toyota, honda etc are NOT premiums manufacturers. Repeat, they are NOT, and they never were.
Premium manufacturers are the likes of Merc, audi, bmw etc.
The closest thing to premium cars from toyota are lexus brand.
Just because someone sells their stuff at high prices does not make them premium.

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Originally Posted by pratim View Post
+1 to that.

I feel that the spokesperson is trying hard to play down the whole thing so that an issue like weak brakes gets some what diluted.

TD and some initial ownership reports on the forum commented about the weak. So, there's a possibility that there's something wrong, though may not be very serious in nature, with the brakes in Fortuner.

I would like to see that Toyota is rectifying this in each of the Fortuners they have sold to this date, instead of the 220 number of customers who complained.

-Pratim
Dont have any hopes that they are going to make the brakes better. This is toyota we are speaking about dude. Agreed, they are reliable cars. But, toyota is not a manufacturer who listens to customers and make changes in their models.
Picture this, last time I checked out the fortuner at a toyota showroom in middle east, even the V6 versions came with rear disk brakes. Even then as it is now all their competitors were selling with rear disks. Now, toyota is not very serious about India compared to other manufacturers. Do you think they are going to change the brakes just cos few customers here complained? Do you think ever since fortuner was introduced no one complained about the brakes? They have a huge suv, with not so bad power, and excellent torque, and they have lousy brakes in it. Do they need someone to tell the the brakes are not enough?
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Old 30th April 2010, 17:09   #29
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well you see whatever way you take it Toyota, honda etc are NOT premiums manufacturers. Repeat, they are NOT, and they never were.
Premium manufacturers are the likes of Merc, audi, bmw etc.
The closest thing to premium cars from toyota are lexus brand.
Just because someone sells their stuff at high prices does not make them premium.
.....
and do not debate the fact about premium.

What I contest though is that I dont think episodes like recalls bring the image down a tad lower than before.

My view..

Last edited by karpusv : 30th April 2010 at 17:20.
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Old 30th April 2010, 17:17   #30
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Er why are things so off topic in the first two pages itself?

This is about Toyota suspending bookings. Obviously, they can't match the demand. Do you really think they want to suspend bookings? In fact, I'm glad they haven't raised prices because at this stage, when demand exceeds supply by such margins, it is so easy for a manufacturer to raise the price.
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