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Old 5th May 2010, 12:01   #61
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One more thing to add in the safety feature list is Seatbelt Pre-tensioner, there can many others but I suppose those features are not there yet in Indian Mass car market.
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Old 5th May 2010, 12:48   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post

- What kind of warped logic is Maruti working on? Why no airbags on Swift & Ritz diesel?
I guess Maruti is paranoid about product cannibalization in the upper B and lower C segment when it comes to their Diesel vehicles.

The Airbags equiped Swift and Ritz will get dangerously close to the Dzire LDi territory; if not more.

But they don't seem to have a problem with it in the petrol version. Understandably, the top end Ritz and Swift (ZXi) are both pricier than the Dzire LXi.

Can anyone post the split between Dzire Petrol Vs Diesel? If the Dzire Diesel outsell the petrol by quite a margin, that will explain Maruti's thinking.

I guess a pair of Airbags and the associated equipments cost a lot more than a boot job and the profit that Dzire brings to MSIL maybe substantial!
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Old 5th May 2010, 13:01   #63
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Unfortunately, these two parameters can only be found out after some kind of large survey. How about a mail to all the XXXXX team-bhp members with a survey attached?
Sounds like a good Idea. However, we can try to access the spare part prices from the respective dealerships. I think few of our T-BHPians should be able to help you in getting these details.
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Old 5th May 2010, 13:08   #64
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
@Mohandas - I will check the availability of Airbag ON/OFF feature on each car too, but how important is this to you and other customers?
To me, it is very important. When I am carpooling kids to their school, one of them do sit in the front. So, not having the switch can really cause a fatal scenario in such cases. In the western world/US, I believe this is a mandatory thing.
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Old 5th May 2010, 14:29   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
samrtcat:
I would take couple of points out from the ford figo. Why ?
The reason is the incomplete airbag feature. There is no turn-off button to disengage the airbag when a kid is sitting in the co-passenger side. To me, this is the height of cost cutting and forced me to dump this car from my list. Giving it to total 27 points straight is a perfect injustice and your research may lose the credibility of being unbiased. Just my 2c.
In this case child should be sitting on the rear seat. This what is advised normally for children under 12 years of age.

As mentioned below on this site:
Child Carseat Safety FAQ

As Figo is not a 2 seater and has rear seats it should be fine.

EDIT: In case you are looking at car pooling with all children I understand this might be an issue, But I think it effect a very small percentage. Just my 2c

Last edited by gou : 5th May 2010 at 14:47. Reason: Reply for quoted lines
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Old 5th May 2010, 14:56   #66
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Airbag on-off is not too important it is essential that we keep childern in the rear as the bigger safety measure irrespective of airbags.

the 18 point that Smartcat you have given for Dual Airbags are a bit too much, I think 9 are more appropriate and that leads to a different result.

else just airbags would get a car 18 + 9 points as in the I20. I would recommend that it should be 9 + 9 only. (dont worry the I20 will not loose out too much)

Great job overall, but needs a bit of tweaking.

Also I guess the featurelist points are missing as yet?????
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Old 5th May 2010, 15:20   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arishi1 View Post
One more thing to add in the safety feature list is Seatbelt Pre-tensioner, there can many others but I suppose those features are not there yet in Indian Mass car market.
Seatbelt pre-tensioner. I have heard that phrase before, but don't know what it does

Time to give Google a small workout then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
To me, it is very important. When I am carpooling kids to their school, one of them do sit in the front. So, not having the switch can really cause a fatal scenario in such cases. In the western world/US, I believe this is a mandatory thing.
Hey yes, I hadn't thought about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gou View Post
EDIT: In case you are looking at car pooling with all children I understand this might be an issue, But I think it effect a very small percentage. Just my 2c
True. Not having an airbag On/Off is not a deal-breaker for many.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
the 18 point that Smartcat you have given for Dual Airbags are a bit too much, I think 9 are more appropriate and that leads to a different result. else just airbags would get a car 18 + 9 points as in the I20. I would recommend that it should be 9 + 9 only. (dont worry the I20 will not loose out too much)
I agree - needs some tweaking to be fair to all cars.
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Old 6th May 2010, 00:58   #68
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OK here is the reworked points system for "SAFETY" - hopefully this one is more logical than before.

To begin with - a very interesting ranking of small cars braking distance. Nobody gives too much attention to this, but in my opinion, a short braking distance is an excellent "active safety" parameter. This data is from Overdrive magazine.

The ranking of braking distance from 100 kmph to zero kmph in metres -

Maruti A-Star 1.0 Petrol ------------- 40.8 m
Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol --------------- 43.02 m
Chevrolet U-VA 1.2 Petrol ----------- 45.5 m
Ford Figo `1.4 Diesel ---------------- 47.9 m
Fiat Punto 1.4 Petrol --------------- 48.2 m
Fiat Palio 1.1 Petro -----------------l 48.2 m
Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol --------------- 48.25 m
Maruti Ritz 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 48.8 m
Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel ----------------- 49.6 m
Skoda Fabia 1.2 Petrol --------------- 49.66 m
Hyundai i10 1.1 Petrol ---------------- 49.8 m
Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol --------------- 49.8 m
Fiat Palio 1.6 Petrol ----------------- 50.1 m
Skoda Fabia 1.4 Diesel -------------- 51 m
Maruti Swift 1.2 Petrol -------------- 51.5 m
Maruti Estilo 1.0 Petrol -------------- 52.3 m
Fiat Palio 1.3 Diesel ----------------- 53.09 m
Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 53.65 m
Maruti Ritz 1.3 Diesel ---------------- 54 m
VW Polo 1.2 Petrol ----------------- 56.4 m
Maruti Swift 1.3 Diesel --------------- 56.6 m
Chevrolet Spark 1.0 Petrol ----------- 58.1 m
Hyundai Getz 1.1 Petrol -------------- 60 m
Hyundai Getz 1.3 Petrol -------------- 60 m
Tata Nano 0.6 Petrol ----------------- 60.17 m
Tata Indica 1.4 Diesel ---------------- 62.1 m
Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel ---------------- 65.36 m
Tata Vista 1.3 Diesel ----------------- 68.7 m

Analysis:

- Maruti A-star owners better watch the rear view mirror once before stomping on the brakes. 40 metres from 100-0 kmph is seriously impressive - this is Audi/BMW territory.

- Tata Vista 1.3 diesel has a truly disappointing braking distance. The difference between Vista 1.3 Diesel and its close competitor Figo 1.4 diesel is a whopping 20 metres!

- Hyundai i20 1.4 diesel too is terribly disappointing - no wonder Hyundai is packing it with airbags. However, i20 1.2 petrol stops within 43 metres. I think i20's diesel engine alone weighs a ton!

Unfortunately, we won't be assigning any points to braking distance. Because we don't have braking distance data on the following cars -

Chevrolet Beat 1.2 Petrol
Tata Vista 1.2 Petrol
Tata Indica 1.2 Petrol
Maruti WagonR 1.1 Petrol
Hyundai Santro 1.1 Petrol
Maruti 800 0.8 Petrol
Maruti Alto 0.8 Petrol
Ford Figo 1.2 Petrol


Coming back to Safety features of the small cars, I'm attaching this image for easy reference.

Small Car Buyer Guide - A Ready Reckoner-safety.jpg


A little bit of glossary:

EBD: EBD is Electronic Brake Force distribution - where brakes are applied with different force on each wheel, based on load on the wheel. The user will have better control over the vehicle under panic braking conditions.

Seatbelt Pretensioner: Seatbelt tightens and holds the passengers in place on impact.

Dual Stage Airbags: Airbags are deployed at variable force, depending on the severity of impact. These are "smarter" airbags.

ISOFIX mounting points: Do a wikipedia search for ISOFIX

I will be assigning 16 pts for dual airbags, 8 pts for side airbags, 6 pts for ABS, 2 pts for EBD and 1 pt each for the other four safety features mentioned above.

Ranking of small cars based on SAFETY:

Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol ------------- 33 pts
Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel ------------- 33 pts
Fiat Punto 1.4 Petrol -------------- 26 pts
Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel -------------- 26 pts
Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol ------------- 25 pts
Maruti Swift 1.2 Petrol -------------25 pts
Tata Vista 1.2 Petrol--------------- 25 pts
Tata Vista 1.3 Diesel -------------- 25 pts
Ford Figo 1.2 Petrol --------------- 24 pts
Ford Figo `1.4 Diesel -------------- 24 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.2 Petrol -------------- 24 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.4 Diesel ------------- 24 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.2 Petrol-------------- 24 pts
Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol -------------- 23 pts
Chevrolet Beat 1.2 Petrol ----------- 22 pts
Maruti A-Star 1.0 Petrol ------------ 22 pts
Maruti Estilo 1.0 Petrol ------------- 22 pts
VW Polo 1.2 Petrol ----------------- 22 pts
Chevrolet Spark 1.0 Petrol ---------- 14 pts
Chevrolet U-VA 1.2 Petrol ----------- 14 pts
Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 8 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.3 Diesel ---------------- 8 pts
Maruti Swift 1.3 Diesel--------------- 8 pts

The following cars get no points for safety -

Fiat Palio 1.1 Petrol
Fiat Palio 1.6 Petrol
Fiat Palio 1.3 Diesel
Hyundai i10 1.1 Petrol
Hyundai Getz 1.1 Petrol
Hyundai Getz 1.3 Petrol
Hyundai Santro 1.1 Petrol
Maruti 800 0.8 Petrol
Maruti Alto 0.8 Petrol
Maruti WagonR 1.1 Petrol
Tata Nano 0.6 Petrol
Tata Indica 1.2 Petrol
Tata Indica 1.4 Diesel

My View: Although Hyundai i20 diesel wins the SAFETY contest, I cannot digest the fact that it takes 68.7 metres to stop from 100-0 kmph. Especially when Ford Figo diesel does it in 47.9 metres.

Assigning equal weightage to performance, driveability, running costs, on road price & safety, the ranking of small cars would be -

1) Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel ------------ 125 pts
2) Maruti Swift 1.3 Diesel ----------- 120 pts
3) Maruti A-Star 1.0 Petrol ---------- 119 pts
4) Maruti Ritz 1.3 Diesel ------------- 117 pts
5) Ford Figo `1.4 Diesel ------------- 115 pts
6) Tata Vista 1.3 Diesel ------------- 115 pts
7) Skoda Fabia 1.4 Diesel ------------110 pts
8) Maruti Swift 1.2 Petrol ------------ 108 pts
9) Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol ------------- 107 pts
10) Maruti Ritz 1.2 Petrol ------------- 106 pts
11) Maruti Estilo 1.0 Petrol ----------- 106 pts
12) Hyundai Santro 1.1 Petrol ---------105 pts
13) Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel ------------- 103 pts
14) Fiat Palio 1.3 Diesel -------------- 100 pts
15) Chevrolet Spark 1.0 Petrol -------- 98 pts
16) Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol ------------ 94 pts
17) Chevrolet Beat 1.2 Petrol --------- 94 pts
18) Fiat Palio 1.6 Petrol --------------- 92 pts
19) Hyundai i10 1.1 Petrol ------------ 90 pts
20) Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol ------------ 87 pts
21) Ford Figo 1.2 Petrol ---------------79 pts
22) Fiat Punto 1.4 Petrol -------------- 77 pts
23) Maruti Alto 0.8 Petrol ------------- 76 pts
24) Skoda Fabia 1.2 Petrol ------------ 75 pts
25) Maruti WagonR 1.1 Petrol ---------- 75 pts
26) Hyundai Getz 1.3 Petrol ----------- 72 pts
27) Maruti 800 0.8 Petrol -------------- 71 pts
28) Tata Vista 1.2 Petrol -------------- 69 pts
29) Tata Indica 1.4 Diesel ------------- 67 pts
30) Chevrolet U-VA 1.2 Petrol ---------- 66 pts
31) VW Polo 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 65 pts
32) Tata Nano 0.6 Petrol -------------- 65 pts
33) Tata Indica 1.2 Petrol ------------- 63 pts
34) Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol -------------- 53 pts
35) Hyundai Getz 1.1 Petrol ------------ 46 pts
36) Fiat Palio 1.1 Petrol --------------- 42 pts

Analysis:

Say Hello! to Maruti A-star - a consistent Rahul Dravid type performer in each match, but just doesn't draw too much attention to himself.
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Old 6th May 2010, 09:32   #69
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A-Star is surely a Rahul Dravid. And I should be really really worried if there's an Indica in my rear view mirror. No wonder why Indica's are so notorious for causing so much road damage to other cars


For those it matters; the passenger AIRBAG off switch does exist in FIAT Punto; its in the Muti Information Display settings.
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Old 6th May 2010, 09:58   #70
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I beg to differ with you SmartCat. The reference image that you have uploaded indicates that Fiat Punto 1.3 MJD doesn't come with passenger airbag ON/OFF switch.

Currently, I own a Fiat Punto 1.3 MJD Emotion Pack and there is an option to turn ON/OFF the passenger side airbag. I do turn OFF the passenger side airbag when I'm driving alone

I would be happy if other Fiat Punto owners clarify the same

Btw, hats off to you SmartCat for this useful thread

Regards
Amith aka KlubClass

Last edited by Klub Class : 6th May 2010 at 10:00.
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:05   #71
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What is this "seat belt pre-tensioner"? Does it mean the seat belts in the Alto and Santro are merely ornamental and make no difference whether one is wearing them or not?
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:32   #72
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hey,

the higher end of Getz 1.3, the GLX model does indeed have ABS.
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Old 6th May 2010, 10:41   #73
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Originally Posted by Klub Class View Post
I beg to differ with you SmartCat. The reference image that you have uploaded indicates that Fiat Punto 1.3 MJD doesn't come with passenger airbag ON/OFF switch.

Currently, I own a Fiat Punto 1.3 MJD Emotion Pack and there is an option to turn ON/OFF the passenger side airbag. I do turn OFF the passenger side airbag when I'm driving alone

I would be happy if other Fiat Punto owners clarify the same
Yes, indeed. The Punto Emotion Pack does have an option to turn OFF/ON the passenger side airbag
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Old 6th May 2010, 11:04   #74
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Thanks all, for the inputs. The SAFETY quick reference guide looks like this now -

Small Car Buyer Guide - A Ready Reckoner-safety.jpg

I will update the points for each car in my Excel sheet, so that it shows up when we compare the equipment levels of all the small cars. Coming up next!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
What is this "seat belt pre-tensioner"? Does it mean the seat belts in the Alto and Santro are merely ornamental and make no difference whether one is wearing them or not?
From Wikipedia -

Pretensioners preemptively tighten the belt to prevent the occupant from jerking forward in a crash. Mercedes-Benz first introduced pretensioners on the 1981 S-Class. In the event of a crash, a pretensioner will tighten the belt almost instantaneously. This reduces the motion of the occupant in a violent crash. Like airbags, pretensioners are triggered by sensors in the car's body, and most pretensioners use explosively expanding gas to drive a piston that retracts the belt. Pretensioners also lower the risk of "submarining", which is when a passenger slides forward under a loosely worn seat belt. An alternative approach being looked at by major car companies is the CG-Lock technology whereby the occupant is held in position via the lap belt in order to prevent the passenger from coming out of position in the event of a crash.

Last edited by smartcat : 6th May 2010 at 11:08.
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Old 6th May 2010, 11:08   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
What is this "seat belt pre-tensioner"? Does it mean the seat belts in the Alto and Santro are merely ornamental and make no difference whether one is wearing them or not?
Seat belt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The seat belts in the cars without them are with a constant load and have a mechanism whereby when you try to jerk them or pull them suddenly they dont move/reel out.
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