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Old 12th May 2010, 15:15   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joybhowmik View Post
Practicality also should consider turning radius (to get out of those tight spots!) and a good amount of trunk space for the running about you need to do in them.
Oh, I'm calling "trunk space" as "boot space" - that's all. Regarding turning radius, data is available but one can always make a three point turn in tight situations. But cars with low turning radius does make a good city car.

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Originally Posted by indivic View Post
It is about the braking distance, where we saw that the Vista takes too long(in distance) to stop. One flaw with ACI data is that once they make a full road test of a car, in this case in 2008 without ABS, they simply reuse the data in subsequent tests and it is not updated. I cannot imagine that the ABS equipped Vista will take that long to stop. But I do not have any fact from my side as well, so I guess we need to go with what we have.
The braking distance data is from Overdrive magazine, by the way. As far as I know, there won't be much difference in braking distance of an ABS & non-ABS car in the dry. In the wet, however, ABS works well.
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Old 13th May 2010, 13:28   #122
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Default ABS will increase braking distance

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Originally Posted by indivic View Post
Excellent work smartcat,I just rated this thread as 5 star, just one small point though.

It is about the braking distance, where we saw that the Vista takes too long(in distance) to stop. One flaw with ACI data is that once they make a full road test of a car, in this case in 2008 without ABS, they simply reuse the data in subsequent tests and it is not updated. I cannot imagine that the ABS equipped Vista will take that long to stop. But I do not have any fact from my side as well, so I guess we need to go with what we have.

Cheers.
A car equipped with ABS will take longer distance to stop in dry conditions than a car without ABS. Refer below:

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ng-system.html (Understanding ABS (Anti Lock Braking System))

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...ance-stop.html (ABS takes longer distance to stop?)

So ABS equipped Vista will take even longer to stop
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Old 13th May 2010, 16:04   #123
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FINAL RANKINGS

This is the ranking of small cars that offer the best compromise between performance, driveability, running costs, safety, equipment, practicality and price. The best allrounders of each small car sub-segment will be higher up the ladder.

An imaginary perfect car would have got [36 x 7] = 252 points.

Quote:

Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel --------------- 184 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.4 Diesel -------------- 166 pts
Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol --------------- 165 pts
Tata Vista 1.3 Diesel ---------------- 165 pts
Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel ---------------- 157 pts
Ford Figo `1.4 Diesel ---------------- 156 pts
Maruti Swift 1.3 Diesel -------------- 154 pts
Maruti Swift 1.2 Petrol ---------------153 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.3 Diesel ---------------- 152 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 150 pts
Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol --------------- 146 pts
Maruti A-Star 1.0 Petrol ------------- 139 pts
Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol --------------- 136 pts
Fiat Palio 1.3 Diesel ------------------ 136 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.2 Petrol --------------- 131 pts
Fiat Punto 1.4 Petrol ---------------- 131 pts
Maruti Estilo 1.0 Petrol -------------- 130 pts
Fiat Palio 1.6 Petrol ----------------- 129 pts
Hyundai Santro 1.1 Petrol ----------- 128 pts
Chevrolet Beat 1.2 Petrol ------------ 125 pts
Chevrolet Spark 1.0 Petrol ----------- 121 pts
Hyundai i10 1.1 Petrol --------------- 120 pts
Hyundai Getz 1.3 Petrol -------------- 120 pts
Ford Figo 1.2 Petrol ----------------- 120 pts
Tata Vista 1.2 Petrol ---------------- 119 pts
VW Polo 1.2 Petrol ------------------ 118 pts
Maruti WagonR 1.1 Petrol ------------ 110 pts
Chevrolet U-VA 1.2 Petrol ----------- 106 pts
Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol ----------------- 100 pts
Tata Indica 1.4 Diesel --------------- 94 pts
Tata Indica 1.2 Petrol --------------- 90 pts
Hyundai Getz 1.1 Petrol ------------- 89 pts
Maruti Alto 0.8 Petrol --------------- 85 pts
Tata Nano 0.6 Petrol ---------------- 83 pts
Fiat Palio 1.1 Petrol ----------------- 78 pts
Maruti 800 0.8 Petrol ---------------- 77 pts
These snapshots give an idea about how each car performed in the parameters we considered.

Small Car Buyer Guide - A Ready Reckoner-img1.jpg


Small Car Buyer Guide - A Ready Reckoner-img2.jpg


Comments:

- Hyundai i20 and Skoda Fabia diesel perform consistently well in all the parameters we considered, except obviously for the price. This means that although the cars are expensive, they are truly worth the price. Punto diesel loses out a bit on outright performance (0 - 100 kmph), but is the least expensive premium diesel car.

- Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol is similarly performs well in all the parameters - the only engine that is actually better than the Marutis. When you add the equipment, safety & practicality into the equation, Honda Jazz goes to the top of the petrol rankings.

- Tata Vista & Ford Figo diesels are Jack-Of-All-Trades-Masters-of-None value for money offerings. The Maruti diesels have a great engine & price (which is what many people really want).

- Among the affordable petrols, Maruti engines simply blitzes the opposition. However, Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol performs pretty decently. If you don't need the sunroof, you can get a proper dual airbags equipped version for Rs. 25,000 less.

- Since this is relative ranking, VW Polo 1.2 Petrol performs rather poorly. But remember that when we bring in subjective aspects like looks, build quality, interiors etc into the equation, it could start making sense. Also, there is a huge price difference between the top end model & the base (or middle rung) model. So if you don't need airbags etc, VW Polo 1.2 Comfortline or Trendline might make sense.

- Among the old gen cars, Hyundai Santro 1.1 offers excellent performance for a low price. No wonder it still sells 8,000 units a month.

- As a city car (or a second car), Maruti A-star is the one to go for. If you are however looking for a VFM option, Tata Nano makes more sense.


ALTERNATIVE RANKINGS:

As many suggested, initial purchase price is paramount. So, assigning twice the weightage to price, we get a truly VFM car.

An imaginary perfect car would have got [36 x 8] = 288 points

Quote:

Hyundai i20 1.4 Diesel -------- 187 pts
Tata Vista 1.3 Diesel --------- 174 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.4 Diesel -------- 167 pts
Honda Jazz 1.2 Petrol --------- 167 pts
Maruti Swift 1.3 Diesel ------- 167 pts
Ford Figo `1.4 Diesel --------- 166 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.2 Petrol -------- 166 pts
Maruti Swift 1.2 Petrol ------- 164 pts
Maruti Ritz 1.3 Diesel -------- 164 pts
Maruti A-Star 1.0 Petrol ------ 163 pts
Fiat Punto 1.3 Diesel --------- 162 pts
Hyundai Santro 1.1 Petrol ----- 160 pts
Maruti Estilo 1.0 Petrol ------ 158 pts
Fiat Palio 1.3 Diesel --------- 154 pts
Hyundai i20 1.2 Petrol -------- 152 pts
Fiat Palio 1.6 Petrol --------- 152 pts
Hyundai i10 1.2 Petrol -------- 150 pts
Hyundai i10 1.1 Petrol -------- 147 pts
Chevrolet Spark 1.0 Petrol ---- 146 pts
Chevrolet Beat 1.2 Petrol ----- 145 pts
Ford Figo 1.2 Petrol ---------- 141 pts
Tata Vista 1.2 Petrol --------- 141 pts
Maruti WagonR 1.1 Petrol ------ 141 pts
Hyundai Getz 1.3 Petrol ------- 139 pts
Fiat Punto 1.4 Petrol --------- 138 pts
Skoda Fabia 1.2 Petrol -------- 135 pts
VW Polo 1.2 Petrol ------------ 126 pts
Tata Indica 1.4 Diesel -------- 124 pts
Tata Indica 1.2 Petrol -------- 123 pts
Chevrolet U-VA 1.2 Petrol ----- 121 pts
Maruti Alto 0.8 Petrol -------- 119 pts
Tata Nano 0.6 Petrol ---------- 119 pts
Fiat Punto 1.2 Petrol --------- 117 pts
Hyundai Getz 1.1 Petrol ------- 115 pts
Maruti 800 0.8 Petrol --------- 112 pts
Fiat Palio 1.1 Petrol --------- 107 pts
Analysis:

All the important cars have around 160 -170 points, which basically proves that the entire "small car analysis guide" thread has been a big waste of time
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Old 13th May 2010, 16:09   #124
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Wonderful work smartcat; KUDOS to you

As someone mentioned that stats are good to have but purchase decisions indeed include certain subjective factor.

But in all, a GREAT EFFORT by you I'd say
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Old 13th May 2010, 17:45   #125
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Great effort Smartcat. Giving twice the weightage to price, i20 1.4 diesel makes the most VFM, thats an interesting conclusion. I thought i20 diesel is the costliest of the lot. Anyways great effort and it will help a lot especially to people who are planning to buy a new small car. Kudos to you for all your effort.
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Old 13th May 2010, 17:50   #126
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Smartcat irrespective of the results, just going through the flow that leads to your analysis could help clear prejudices and give clarity to buyers who are confused.

One need not go for the top car (in other aspects) for a price point but it is important to buy a car knowing its pros and cons before hand.

Somehow Safety is where a lot of the expensive cars have pulled ahead and yes safety is important.

But it's relative - Is an I20 or a jazz with all the airbags they have safer than a gen2 Indigo manza or fiesta which comes at the same price with a boot but lesser no of airbags and definately no side bags. Size does matter and a car with a boot will be safer atleast in the case of rear impact compared to one without a boot, irrrespective of the no of airbags.

Similarly even if we were to cram an 110/beat with airbags it may not be able to beat a larger I20 or punto or Vista without airbags.

Vista has the best space par none in the segment and decent features, so for someone who is driven (a where snob value is not too important) it may be the perfect and infact the best car. What is the point in paying for front airbags or adjustable stearing etc, and being driven in seating in a smaller rear seat.

It is best buyers go through the process and take their call.

Also for pricing rather than giving points in terms of the pricing rank it may also make sense to give points as per the price itself. so for example a 4L car gets say 40 points then a 8L car gets 40/2 points. This would lead to the true value of cars comming across.

Now next up we await your Entry level Sedan Study (Dzier - Indigo manza, fiesta, verna, Linea, SX4 - right upto SX4)
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Old 13th May 2010, 23:53   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheetumanu View Post
As someone mentioned that stats are good to have but purchase decisions indeed include certain subjective factor.
I agree!

Quote:
Originally Posted by arishi1 View Post
Giving twice the weightage to price, i20 1.4 diesel makes the most VFM, thats an interesting conclusion.
And moreover, there is an equally well equipped version without sunroof and 4 less airbags for something like Rs. 40,000 cheaper. So among the premium hatchbacks, i20 diesel is an excellent VFM offering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasanthn21 View Post
Can I expect a similar post on Sedans once you arrive at the winner in this thread ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Now next up we await your Entry level Sedan Study (Dzier - Indigo manza, fiesta, verna, Linea, SX4 - right upto SX4)
Allright then - consider it done! And this time, will incorporate all the feedback received - like considering 0 - 60 kmph, turning radius, braking distance and so on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Somehow Safety is where a lot of the expensive cars have pulled ahead and yes safety is important.

But it's relative - Is an I20 or a jazz with all the airbags they have safer than a gen2 Indigo manza or fiesta which comes at the same price with a boot but lesser no of airbags and definately no side bags. Size does matter and a car with a boot will be safer atleast in the case of rear impact compared to one without a boot, irrrespective of the no of airbags.

Similarly even if we were to cram an 110/beat with airbags it may not be able to beat a larger I20 or punto or Vista without airbags.

Vista has the best space par none in the segment and decent features, so for someone who is driven (a where snob value is not too important) it may be the perfect and infact the best car. What is the point in paying for front airbags or adjustable stearing etc, and being driven in seating in a smaller rear seat.
You got a point there. My personal prejudice against cars priced Rs. 6 Lacs & above, and not being equipped with airbags shows. Next time, I will try to be a bit more fair!
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Old 14th May 2010, 10:23   #128
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Post A relook at the exercise

Hello all and Hello Smartcat,
I appreciate your efforts to create a decision matrix for a customer to choose the best car. Now if I put myself in the manufacturers show – it is deciding on the parameters which would make the best car of the customer.
Now do not be mistaken, that it is not the car which is full points in every section – that is just a hypothesis. The trick lies in balancing each of the parameters. More like you have 100 points – distribute it among the various parameters like – safety , speed, price etc.
This way we find out the best combination of parameters – the car which will be the most desirable in market.
Having set this standard – we should then compare each car to this standard.
What you have done here is a parallel comparison of each model in each parameter – where the parameters are not weighted and linked to the other parameter. AND – we need to classify the customer. We have to clearly segregate our rankings into applications – for example.
1. The middle aged man with a family who wants to go around in the city and to his inlaws place 150 km away once in 1 or 2 months
2. The gritty commuter – milling 2500 kms in a day in city
3. The high roader
Etc etc. We can debate and decide the classifications within ourselves.
This whole exercise – I am sure many of you will know – is known as developing the House of Quality or the QFD table.
It so happens that I have some experience in developing QFDs not exactly for the (passenger car section) but utility and commercial vehicles. I would like to take a shot at this.
Now my request to Smartcat is : I am sure you have put down all this data in a excel sheet or some file. If you can please share it with me , then it would save me some time and effort.
It may be that the entire RE-visit of this decision matrix may throw up a list which is exactly the same as the list which floating around right now. But I guess it will be interesting to look at.

Cheers
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Old 14th May 2010, 11:48   #129
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1) The middle aged man with a family will probably go for the "Commuter Petrol" segment - comparing these cars with eachother makes sense. Ritz petrol Vs Beat Vs i10 1.2 petrol Vs Swift Petrol Vs Ford Figo Petrol Vs Vista Petrol Vs Punto 1.2 Petrol. Those on a lower budget will look at the old gen cars (Estilo, Santrol, Spark etc). But in this segment, as somebody else pointed out, most customers go for the middle version.

Vxi, not Zxi
LS, not LT
Dynamic, not Emotion Pack

My estimate (from what I've seen on the road) is that over 50% of the cars sold in this segment are the middle version. The on road prices are lower, but so are the equipment & safety levels. But rest of the parameters (performance, practicality, running costs etc remain the same).

2) The gritty commuter will probably choose between Figo diesel Vs Vista Diesel Vs Ritz Diesel Vs Swift Diesel. Such a customer might want to take a look at the rankings and compare the driveability, running costs & practicality offered by each car. Majority of these customer might NOT take a look at even the base versions of Punto, although the price is right.

3) The "high roader" as you call them, will probably look at Jazz, Fabia, Polo and perhaps even the top end Punto. Such customers could look at their relative rankings, and then add subjectivity aspects into the soup to decide.


I'm attaching my XL sheet - but beware, my XL sheets are not very professionally done. Not sure how useful it would be to others!
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx smallcar.xlsx (60.3 KB, 710 views)

Last edited by smartcat : 14th May 2010 at 11:49.
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Old 14th May 2010, 14:40   #130
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Default Tweaked excel

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post

I'm attaching my XL sheet - but beware, my XL sheets are not very professionally done. Not sure how useful it would be to others!
Great work smartcat. I can imagine the effort gone for this analysis. I found your XL sheet to be very nicely done. As I earlier said - Hats off to you!!

I did a small tweak into the excel sheet and introduced a row for weightage you would like to give to parameters compared to other parameters and then calculating the weighted average to a new column. One sample combination is there as an example. You can put your own weightage and then see the results.

I tried a few weightage combinations. What I found is that its difficult to remove i20 from the top. I never knew it was so much VFM.

Last edited by gou : 14th May 2010 at 14:51. Reason: adding appreciation for xls
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Old 14th May 2010, 14:49   #131
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Smartcat, excellent writeup and I think the results really reflect the indian market mentality. As metioned by you, the most sold/interest generating cars in India are in the average range, a balance between everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Somehow Safety is where a lot of the expensive cars have pulled ahead and yes safety is important.

But it's relative - Is an I20 or a jazz with all the airbags they have safer than a gen2 Indigo manza or fiesta which comes at the same price with a boot but lesser no of airbags and definately no side bags. Size does matter and a car with a boot will be safer atleast in the case of rear impact compared to one without a boot, irrrespective of the no of airbags.
Sorry, I disagree here. It's a myth that a bigger car is always safer, even though they don't have airbags or other safety equipment. There is a video in youtube which shows a collision between a last generation passenger van (a Renault Espace IIRC) and a humble latest generation Renault Modus. Even with its bulk compared to the Modus, the cabin intrusion and passenger injury (test dummies inside) were far worse than the little Modus, whose passenger compartment remained intact and had a far less chance of injury to the occupants. (Cannot attach the video because I'm writing from the office)


Quote:
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I tried a few weightage combinations. What I found is that its difficult to remove i20 from the top. I never knew it was so much VFM.
It's the definition of VFM that changes the game. There is one huge parameter in India which accounts for almost 50% of the buying decision and it's called brand! People decide I need a Maruti or I need a Honda or I need a Toyota. Luckily, this is changing as the average buyer is getting more automotive literate. For example, one of my relatives, told me that Hyundai sells only in India and Korea. This was three years back, when I bought my Santro. He is not an uneducated person or something, he's a manager in a bank. So, the penetration of automotive news is in that bad situation.


Came across this old article while searching for "crash testing in India". Interesting read - tata.com : Crash testing for dummies (and why we don?t do it)=

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Old 14th May 2010, 14:52   #132
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Gou, is it possible to modify my XL sheet with formulas so that ->

As soon as I enter the data (0 - 100 kmph time, mileage, in gear accelaration etc) for a new car like VW Polo diesel (for example), it should automatically assign points and rank all the cars?
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Old 14th May 2010, 16:56   #133
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Gou, is it possible to modify my XL sheet with formulas so that ->

As soon as I enter the data (0 - 100 kmph time, mileage, in gear accelaration etc) for a new car like VW Polo diesel (for example), it should automatically assign points and rank all the cars?
Yeah, its possible I think. One would probably need to create pivot tables for this in excel. Unfortunately, I don't know it that well. But, still will try to find if there is some workaround for that. Prabably, it can be done by some conditional programming in excel. I will try that.

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Originally Posted by A350XWB View Post
It's the definition of VFM that changes the game. There is one huge parameter in India which accounts for almost 50% of the buying decision and it's called brand! People decide I need a Maruti or I need a Honda or I need a Toyota. Luckily, this is changing as the average buyer is getting more automotive literate. For example, one of my relatives, told me that Hyundai sells only in India and Korea. This was three years back, when I bought my Santro. He is not an uneducated person or something, he's a manager in a bank. So, the penetration of automotive news is in that bad situation.
I understand. Even I am not a big fan of i20 or for that matter, but what amazed me more that even when I gave price an higher weightage than other parameters i20 came on top or second position. One of the reasons for that is that scores heavily on safety parameters. We should thank Hyundai for providing curtain airbags on a hatch. Even bigger sedans like Corolla, Civic and Cruze do not have curtain airbags AFAIK.
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Old 14th May 2010, 18:18   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gou View Post
I understand. Even I am not a big fan of i20 or for that matter, but what amazed me more that even when I gave price an higher weightage than other parameters i20 came on top or second position. One of the reasons for that is that scores heavily on safety parameters. We should thank Hyundai for providing curtain airbags on a hatch. Even bigger sedans like Corolla, Civic and Cruze do not have curtain airbags AFAIK.
Totally agree with you. Let me rephrase my thoughts. I never have any problem with a specific manufacturer. When I was looking for my car, I had two choices, the Santro and the Wagon R. I took the Santro because it fit my needs better. I really don't believe that there is something called a "perfect car". Everybody has their own preferences and a car which suits me may not suit another buyer. And that's why I really liked the tabulated data from Smartcat.
But I also don't like people's step-motherly attitude towards some manufacturers. Some critizise Hyundai for an overpriced i20 and praise Toyota for the Corolla. In reality, the base model of Corolla sold in the US, which is 30-40% (direct conversion (just for comparison)) cheaper than the base version in India, is more loaded with features than the top end Indian version. Who's robbing the Indians? But are we complaning?
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Old 14th May 2010, 18:50   #135
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Talking about safety - under Indian driving conditions (basically means trucks & buses with no crash guards), I think a hatchback with its high bonnet is safer than a sedan. Most sedans will under a bus or a truck on impact.

However, hatchbacks have "less metal" (hence a smaller crumple zone). So slamming into a tree or a pole is less safer in a hatchback than a sedan - assuming both the hatchback and the sedan are equally well-built.
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