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Old 12th July 2010, 22:26   #241
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Apart from the Cruze, there is no other competition in the diesel territory. Laura/Jetta would be cost much higher.
Quite some difference between the highest end of Altis and Laura/Jetta.
Precisely. Actually, I was thinking whether it would have been possible to launch the Laura in a base diesel trim. This is because the Laura (Octavia in international markets), sells for approximately the same price as the Civic (I looked at UK prices).
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Old 12th July 2010, 22:36   #242
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Precisely. Actually, I was thinking whether it would have been possible to launch the Laura in a base diesel trim. This is because the Laura (Octavia in international markets), sells for approximately the same price as the Civic (I looked at UK prices).
For this reason alone, as GTO mentioned, Altis will bring numbers.

My other doubt is that we see 2 or 1.9L diesel at one end and 1.4/1.5L diesel at the other.
There is no 1.8L diesel or something in that territory. Is there any specific reason or am I unaware?
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Old 12th July 2010, 22:41   #243
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Had been to NANDI TOYOTA today for Innova servicing.

Came to know from the salesman that, 3 grades will be offered. Launch on 21st July confirmed
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Old 12th July 2010, 22:58   #244
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Default Yes there defintely is clatter for about 5000kms.

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Today i had a chance to hear to cruze's engine and felt the clatter was little higher ,is it so with you all?
Take it from me there are two states of tune for the cruze thats in the market which will be vehemently denied by the service engineers. I know for sure that its true since my colleague has the milder tune and I have the more powerful version of the same engine. Its all to do with the turbo charger's primary vane activation, fueling and injection timing.

The difference is that mine pulls from 1280rpm and his from 1700rpm. Mine has a typical diesel knock which is definitely more than my friends Cruze. I get less mileage than him over the same distance of 14kmpl while he gets 15kmpl and above. My car is much more powerful than his car and can climb up steep gradients without pressing the accelerator, slotting into 1st gear is more than sufficient. There is negligible turbo lag in my car but he has to contend with it. Both cars mellowed down in diesel knock only after 5000kms. His car is more silent though and cannot be heard in the cabin. My car is more noisy though it has diminished greatly after 5000-5800km. Running in period for the Cruze is definitely more than 5500km even this too will be denied by the service engineer. I know my car is never going to be as diesel knock free as my colleagues but he envies the pick up in my car especially when overtaking in higher gears. Both cars knock less than comparable diesels though for example cars from Volkswagen and Skoda.

So its all down to luck as to which state of tune you get in your car. As far as I know its all got to do with primary vane activation, fueling and injection timing and possibly injection quantity/pressure. They share the exact same ECU and programming to confound matters further.
Yes one more thing, mine smokes marginally more than him in pedal to the carpet mode which has decreased over the months though.

Last edited by drpullockaran : 12th July 2010 at 23:03.
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Old 13th July 2010, 12:26   #245
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@drpullockaram:

What you are suggesting is that Chevy is indulging in illegal practice in India. All cars are approved by ARAI and the specifications are frozen along with other emission parameters etc. Indian manufacturers cannot willy nilly tune the same products to different states of tuning. This kind of thing is done after market like Pete's etc. So, I think it is in the mind mate.
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Old 13th July 2010, 12:56   #246
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@drpullokaran: I have driven all Chevrolet diesels sold in India, None of them pulls from 1280rpm, all of them have SEVERE turbo lag.
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Old 13th July 2010, 22:38   #247
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@drpullokaran: I have driven all Chevrolet diesels sold in India, None of them pulls from 1280rpm, all of them have SEVERE turbo lag.
If you ever come to Cochin have a drive in my Cruze and you will be surprised. I am not claiming that the company willfully changes the setting as its frozen as mentioned earlier at the design stage itself. Whats possibly is happening is that sensitivity of various stepper motor and solenoids to inputs from the ECU may be marginally different. I will try and post a photo of the gradient that my Cruze climbs without pressing the accelerator and then you can judge whether its in the mind. After this I shall try and post a video of the acceleration post 1280rpm and the negligible difference after 1700rpm while accelerating. Its not only me there is another guy in Malta who has the same state of tune the link to which is below and read there read the posts by serp86. I am not the only one and the only common aspect among other Cruze owners is that all who have the more powerful version are having the base version that is LT in India.
cruze 2.0 vcdi 150 hp acceleration - Chevrolet Cruze Forum
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Old 13th July 2010, 23:44   #248
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was out of town for a couple of days so its going to be long reply please excuse me

@hrishing Sorry for the lack of clarity in my reply. avishu is right i compared the CRUZE VS ALTIS

@Chevelle I agree with you brother long wait is always toyota's game and yes its going to be the preferred car for hotels and taxis.

@Joy73us i'm not an expert however i'm not sure whether the linea is powerful than the altis D but toyota's reliability and fiat A.S.S make the Altis a better option, preference differ from person to person.No offence in your opinion.

@ampere There used to be 1.8D in Ford Escort/Ikon, there used to be a coimbatore made 1.8d jaya engine, uno had 1.7d and astra had 1.7tdi. These are all conventional diesel engines though.

@drpullockaran There is a slight variations in most cars.Cause my qualis and my cousin's qualis had different engine timing mine was a bit advanced and his was a bit retard.Mine had better pick up, more noisy, poor mileage and better top end his was wise versa.And in the automatic cruze review in Team-bhp by an user he said he did 212 consistently during the Test drive but from another person reported that his cruze looses breath after 190.

@joshguy i wouldnt consider verna as a competitor for the altis cause it belongs to the mid-size sedan segment whereas altis belongs to the premium sedan segment.have been in cousin's verna its much smaller than altis and having first hand experience with both toyota and hyundai my personal favorite is the toyota.Though verna has a stonker engine i dont feel fair to compare cars of different segments.

with regards to the Taxi thing i see more number of camrys used by hotel than private cause of the duty advantage but that doesnt affect its image and guess people will not bother it much with the altis as well.
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Old 14th July 2010, 10:07   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vivek_gaur69 View Post
Corolla is not a segment leader anymore, cruze has beaten everybody.
There is an article in yesterdays Times of India. To sum it up the Cruze sells about 800 units a month and Altis average about 750/800 units a month. So, the segment leaders margin is quite thin. Now with the diesel Altis, overall sales will beat the cruze. Toyota expects to sell about 1100 units of both petrol and diesel versions. Total sales in this segment is about 3000 units. Again, I want to emphasize that this is not a figment of my imagination or my dream. I am just quoting a published article.

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pay 12-15 lakhs for a car and not get an acceptable performance is a very dicey strategy. remember even VW vento will come with 105HP and 25.5 Kgm torque, why not buy VENTO.
I agree with some of the other posters that a 1.9 or 2.0 L engine would have been ideal for this car.

However, if you are hung up on bhp numbers, and like to drive fast, Altis diesel is not be the car. However, when a company like Toyota studies the market, they may have felt that majority of the buyers maybe happy with a reliable, comfy car with low maintenance cost and good mileage. For the minority who want sheer performance numbers, Skoda Lauro or Cruze is they way to go. I still don't agree with your Vento suggestion as the Altis is a lot more spacious car than Vento. Besides, in my view majority of Corrolla buyers are not performance enthusiasts, so in that sense, it shouldn't affect the diesel in anyway.
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Old 14th July 2010, 14:54   #250
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Default Manza and Altis - interesting bedfellows?

Let me not surprise you, but spec for spec (even space) the Manza Aura + is a proper rival for the Altis. I have sat in both cars and the cabin space is very comparable among both. I know most people will say 'come on' but sit in both cars within a few hours of each other and you will know and be able to compare. The Manza is also almost the same size as the Altis externally. And surprise,surprise, the manza has almost (or will almost have) equal cabin space with the Altis. Get the segments out of your mind and you
will definitely see the similarity. The ride quality is quite comparable with the Manza's twist beam suspension . Mind you the Toyota does not have the greatest damping and ride too.And both make around 90bhp.

The significant difference of course is that the 1.4 D4D comes with a 6-speed gearbox which should make its driving dynamics different, and of course maybe a slightly higher top speed. I remember the same engine had topped out at 175 or something, don't remember where. The Manza has a top speed in the range of 165. Of course this does not matter in everyday drivability which is why they are going with a 1.4 l engine.The cost though would almost be double !!!!

All in all it would be interesting to do a comparo of the two cars when the altis diesel is out. If you were not shown these two cars previously in your life, and are presented with them suddenly( like a blind man in hindi movies who was operated upon and then shown nothing but this in the first sight) you may agree that they are quite similar. Tata should wake up, smell the coffee and the opportunity. Sadly their R&D is not up to speed for this at least in engine development.They still are dependent on AVL or Fiat for engine options.

Before you flame me, I would appeal, do visit the showrooms, look at the altis, then go directly to a Tata showroom and check the Manza out. An Aura+ if possible so that the features are not missed out. Of course the climatronic stuff is not there in the Manza. It is known that the cabin fit and finish are not up to the mark but those can be worked on in.You can correct me if I got any facts wrong. But this is more of a check-and-feel comparison based on basic observation and a basic knowledge of the specs and not based on any measuring tape .
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:30   #251
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Let me not surprise you, but spec for spec (even space) the Manza Aura + is a proper rival for the Altis.
I am not surprised, in fact I wanted to ask this question but withheld for the below reason.

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Before you flame me
A Tata being compared to a Toyota? I would be out of my mind.
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Old 14th July 2010, 15:44   #252
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I am not surprised, in fact I wanted to ask this question but withheld for the below reason.


A Tata being compared to a Toyota? I would be out of my mind.
I'm not shocked , and I'm not out of my mind either. It's all IN the mind

Just to be sure, I'm ready with my fire extinguisher! PSSSSSS. And what's more,
I feel like Dan Brown.
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Old 14th July 2010, 16:41   #253
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So while the extinguishers are ready. Hear Goes.

Actually the Manza internally and externally actually matches the Corolla Altis inch for inch and makes a lot lot more sense that most other cars priced between it and the Altis.

It should not be that hard to get an even higher spec engine and minor feature upgades to match it totally at about 1L more.

But Brands to matter, so Altis Diesel will sell.

What is true about the manza is slowly being realized by Indians in general and month on month we are seeing it grown in numbers slowly but surely.

The Octavia with 90 BHP engine is also something that compares closely with the Manza and it did so well for itself over the years as a premium vehicle.

If price the same yes Altis is the one to pic and possibly even if it has a 1.5L premium but at close to 5L extra impact on the pocket one for something very similar one might as well go for the Manza.

Corolla apeal is different from that for other cars and hence it is the world largest selling sedan. I seems to offer the best value globally, but not to that extent in India.
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Old 14th July 2010, 17:02   #254
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It should not be that hard to get an even higher spec engine and minor feature upgades to match it totally at about 1L more.

But Brands to matter, so Altis Diesel will sell.

What is true about the manza is slowly being realized by Indians in general and month on month we are seeing it grown in numbers slowly but surely.

The Octavia with 90 BHP engine is also something that compares closely with the Manza and it did so well for itself over the years as a premium vehicle.
My thoughts exactly ACM - I am glad to see that this makes sense after all.Interesting observation on the Octavia but probably that is too old a vehicle but makes sense. As far as a space comparison is concerned, the manza beats the octavia hollow in terms of rear seat legspace at least. My uncle has an octavia , so have done this comparison too...
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Old 14th July 2010, 17:21   #255
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We are going off Topic here, Indigo Manza will never compete with the Toyota Altis. That being said Indigo Manza is an excellent value for the Money car. Howerver, Tata has a long way to go before customers will trust them with Toyota like quality so for now, this discussion can be ended. I sincerely doubt anyone who has the money to spend on an Altis Diesel will consider the Indigo Manza. You cannot sell crummy quality for years and expect to compete with Toyota overnight. Tatas have miles to go in this regard.

@rpmx1000: For majority of the buyers a brand matters. Cars in India are a status symbol as well. No matter how convincing that Tata Manza ad may look. You cannot drive up into a 5-Star hotel in a Manza and show the world that you have arrived in life and I think this matters to many buyers in the premium segment. Personally, I couldn't care what I drive to a 5-star hotel. Right now, I use my MM540 for my Taj visits and the valet seems fine with it :-)

Last edited by 4x4addict : 14th July 2010 at 17:25.
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