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Old 14th July 2010, 17:36   #256
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Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
Personally, I couldn't care what I drive to a 5-star hotel. Right now, I use my MM540 for my Taj visits and the valet seems fine with it :-)
They seem fine even with an M800 .

As someone who has an Indigo in the family I have to say that the VFM and TCO aspect of Tata's cars just keeps blows my mind.

If I were to take my heart out of the equation I would never buy anything other than a Tata diesel. But it's the heart that makes the head work, so there .

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Old 14th July 2010, 17:48   #257
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We are going off Topic here, Indigo Manza will never compete with the Toyota Altis. That being said Indigo Manza is an excellent value for the Money car. Howerver, Tata has a long way to go before customers will trust them with Toyota like quality so for now, this discussion can be ended.
If you feel so, but it was just something that most people don't want to hear. The thing is , it may or it may not compete, but it _can_.And not without any reason. If you see, segments are themselves figments of imagination that are invented and broken and re-invented. Nothing but mass hypnotism that starts and spread slowly.And yes,I can bet a samosa this ad you mention will appear too . The customer perception angle is one thing. And besides, the earlier responses were all Laura/Jetta/Cruze et al. So it is not altogether out-of-topic.
In any case, this can be moved to a separate thread.Mods, donno how to start a poll..Can someone help me out with a PM?

Last edited by rpmx1000 : 14th July 2010 at 17:51.
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Old 14th July 2010, 22:05   #258
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@rpmx1000 and @acm.
i would have been the guy to fire you, if not for one thing. On my way home sometime back i was waiting in the signal and there was a Black Manza which passed on the other side of the road i was like ya it looks good in black and yes it is huge, just after another car an altis followed it and i was shocked that both looked very similar in size aspects. Just for the records my friend's manza does only 12kmpl, toyota might win it here. And people buy altis for its image. Altis takes a huge victory when it comes to Fit and finish and reliability. For someone who just needs a sedan for everyday use with roomy interior, who is fine with tata's fit and finish, someone who doesnt care about the brand value and who dont wanna have his car for a decade can definitely pick a manza for everything else its the Altis
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Old 15th July 2010, 09:53   #259
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PCS, Fuhrer & 4X4 addict. The points you make are really valid and true in many ways - lets also see the world through slightly different sets of glasses as well.

There is this other active live Aria thread where the Aria is on a very very active level being compared with the Innova Mainly (and is even expected to be more Expensive, better featured and of acceptible quality in comparision) the Aria is also being debated as an option to the Fortuner with better features and VFM pricing, though it is a different form of vehicle except for the 4X4 AWD, 7 seater and comparible engine aspect. Infact the Aria is pipped to better the Fortuner on Braking (with 4 disk brakes and all the Traction Control, ABS, ESP etc gizzos).

So yep TATA and Toyota are actively even for other products compared it just needs one to be jolted to accept this via an actual experience of comparing the two.

Agree with all who mention that the Brand Image does not match up between the two and it would take TATA years to have comparible Brand Image but I think that on fit and finish TATA is already 90% of the way through in the recent launches and the last 10% is not too far off.

The intention is not to go off topic and move away from the Altis Diesel dicussion, but the truth of the India Automobiles market is that over the years, Honda, Toyota, GM and recently VW have moved in with comparatively higher priced vehicles (possibly due to low localization content) and rasied the price of the C+ segment to a level that is too much higher compared to the B+ & C segments - especially if compared with the pricing levels worldwide.

Toyota Altis will with our eyes closed be the better over all vehicle but is it worth an extra 5L in my mind not - 2l extra is fine.

Will there be buyer for the Altis Diesel? Yes more than every before and it will cause problems even to the higher D- segment Laura Zetta and Cruz, and the civic will probably be anhilated totally.

Yet this does not deviate from the point that all of these are priced much higher just due to the poor localization levels unlike the levels that Fiat, TATA, Maurti and Hyundia achieve.

Brand premium is to be paid and that is why we pay the 110% duty for the fully imported Merc, BMW, Audi etc, but sadly we have in India made the compact sedan (Altis / Civic) segement the Entry level Premium segment.

Just does not cut ice. Have seen manufacturers being jolted to give value like Ford is now attempting with the Endy and Nisan with Micra and VW with Polo/Vento, so we may not be surprised to see a reshuffle in the segment post the Altis introduction due to introductions from the other companies.

TATA Manza/Aria in time with a better (read bigger) engines / Features will probably pose the value question all to strongly to the worldwide value leaders Toyota and Honda.

Last edited by ACM : 15th July 2010 at 09:55.
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Old 15th July 2010, 10:44   #260
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@ACM,
Wonderfully put, I doubt if I could have put it across this well.
Toyota and Honda succeeded because of a value proposition in the US.They
have taken the Indian market for granted based on a brand name game. Toyota is less so and Honda more so. Case in point, Fortuner offers a lot of value compared to CRV, Captiva etc but yes it has its downsides.

It is companies like Tata and Mahindra that will give the likes of Toyota something to think about, if not sleepless nights in the years to come.

While no one including me doubts the Altis Diesel's value proposition in its segment, or whether it will succeed, the comparison is an interesting discussion to have.

Of course, let us wait for the release of the Altis Diesel and a tbhp review/road test, we can then do a full fledged comparison with all the alternatives and see how the manza stacks up. Another point of similarity:Both these sedans weigh in at exactly 1200 kg.

Quote:
Just for the records my friend's manza does only 12kmpl, toyota might win it here
@Fuhrer, The manza has an ARAI of 21.02 kmpl as opposed to Toyota's 21.43 kmpl . If you figure this out by simple analogy, I suppose
the Altis Diesel might return around 13-14 kmpl. For the record, many Manza's return upwards of 14 in city traffic too.

Last edited by rpmx1000 : 15th July 2010 at 10:50. Reason: stating the argument correctly
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Old 15th July 2010, 14:15   #261
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@Pcs @acm @rmpx1000

I never said Manza is a Bad car or not worth comparison. What i intended to say is though they are very similar cars they are targeted at different segments of buyers. Manza as everyone accepts is the Best VFM car. We personally have a Logan and a vista in office. Most people hate logan and many would prefer a swift vdi than a vista, but in my case these two are the best cars for my requirement. Both are the cheaper in the segments, both have most interior space in the segment, both have good FE, i'm not sure about vista as we both it recently but our logan returns 14kmpl in city and highway 18 and above, which according me is an awesome mileage. Logan is cheap in all ways cause it is indeed a cheap car.For 6L i cant expect it to have the fit and finish of a C-Class.

Likewise when it comes to manza it depends on the buyer. If a person needs a simple car to do his everyday work manza would simply do it and for the price the manza is offered you cant expect it to be like Altis as it is 5L more.

Coming back to fit and finish, i accept the fact tata has improved a lot but it still has a long way to go. What annoys me more is TATA is the supplier of body panels for many renowned brands, when they can do a very good jobs why cant they do it on their own cars. They still have inconsistent panel gabs and poor interior finishes.

Though they may look equally good on day one to other brands but Toyota lost long whereas TATA and Hyundai decays much faster.

ARAI testing figures are always just for papers, i dont expect it to return more than 15 as you said.
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Old 15th July 2010, 15:17   #262
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I agree with furher and I am not saying Manza is a bad car either. It is definitely a lot of car for the money. Where I am disagreeing with you is that majority of the people who have 12 - 15 lakh budget for a car will not pick Manza over the Altis/Cruze/Laura etc..

I too agree that the Altis Deisel is not worth twice the price of the Manza, but in India, people are willing to pay a huge premium for an imported brand. Just in the same way, I don't believe that the Pajero 2.8/Fortuner/Endy etc are worth double the price of the Safari/Scorpio. Probably worth 50% more but still Endy/2.8/Fortuner have plenty of takers. Why don't these people buy a top end Scorpio/Safari? Simple answer, image !!
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Old 16th July 2010, 14:52   #263
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Apologies if I have missed the answer to this question in this thread. The D-4D badging, does it mean that the corolla will get an engine similar to the diesel innova ?
The diesel innova has the D-4D badging as well.
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Old 16th July 2010, 16:48   #264
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D-4D is a series of engines from Toyota like the K series is a series of engines with Maruti. So D-4D indicates that it is from the same family as the Fortuner and the Innova.
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Old 16th July 2010, 20:40   #265
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Corolla Diesel - next week Wednesday June 21 is the launch in Delhi.
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Old 16th July 2010, 22:26   #266
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Corolla Diesel - next week Wednesday June 21 is the launch in Delhi.
Did they launch the Corolla diesel on 21st June. If so did any one see the car. What is the price of it.
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Old 16th July 2010, 23:43   #267
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Did they launch the Corolla diesel on 21st June. If so did any one see the car. What is the price of it.
Its getting launched on July 21st.. Finger's Crossed.
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Old 17th July 2010, 20:58   #268
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Vehicles have reached dealerships !!!

And yes its a mesh grille and looks good.
It was stored in the back yard of dealer nandi toyota.

Sorry guys , no pics.
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Old 17th July 2010, 22:09   #269
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Lets wait for a test drive review and reports!

GTO? Any plans?
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Old 18th July 2010, 13:53   #270
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Finally good to hear that they have launched the one with the mesh grille, instead of the camry style grille which is not a great looker for this car according to me. Even Tamil automobile magazine Motor Vigudan showed the other grille in their recent issue. Finally the day has come. Eagerly waiting for the review
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