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Old 21st July 2010, 14:22   #331
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Default Turbo Lag on Diesel Altis

Massive turbo-lag as per ACI
"Allow the engine speed to fall below 2000rpm and the only way to get this car moving again is a downshift to a lower gear. Else the turbo takes ages to spool up and you are left floundering."

This is where a smaller engine lags behind the bigger engines. Till the time turbo spools up the car with bigger engine is way ahead, & in an everyday driving scenario, a person who has spent a million bucks won't like to feel like a sitting duck.

This the reason I wish they had a bigger engine for the Corolla. But, I feel that Toyota might be using a variant of the same engine for Etios... economies of scale... more profit, a technique the Japs are master at.

But, no doubt the pricing is good & coupled with the brand image, it will draw crowds to showrooms.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:24   #332
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Sad that the engine doesnt shine as much as the car.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:25   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
1) This is a good example of a Manufacturer cheating Indian customers. What a 1364cc diesel engine in a car that is certainly not small ? And then pricing it higher ? Wonder what diesel will we have in Etios. May be the Etios hatch will have a 0.8 ltr. diesel and Etios sedan will have 1.1 ltr. diesel.
He he.. Why are we so hung up about this 'small' engine and figures? After all
the car moves.
Quote:
[The only reason why Altis would succeed is bad A.S & S. + high cost of spares of Skoda in general. Else no body would buy a 1.4 diesel sedan for Rs. 10 lakh+. The car deserves a 2.0 ltr. unit.
No, not really. People would for the same reasons they buy any maruti that's launched.While I agree on the needing a 2.0 ltr unit part, its a toyota and it ticks the boxes on what people need from a diesel Altis. And I can tell you mango men won't be banging heads on online forums about peak torque and torque curves and engine size. Toyota knows the market too well. Of course they have not delivered from a bhp-ians expectation . But then they might have had cost issues with bringing in a 1.8 diesel or time-to-market issues with developing one from scratch. When a barge like the innova develops 100 bhp and 255 Nm only - and most people are satisfied with the performance, why does this (much lighter) car, with almost similar figures, get the stick so much? No double standards here ?? Look at it from Toyota's perspective,So they cut costs and time to market with this launch. And the average indian will go for it - The only thing that can make this fail in the market is if t-bhpians go and picket the shops with posters screaming "This has a 1.4L engine which makes *only* 90 bhp" - but we don't do that , would we ?

There was another point I wanted to add: - This altis is meant to please all and displease none. The ACI report says it needs some shifting to stick in the powerband. Maybe a 5-speed box could have done real justice to that engine. With a 6-speeder with more differences in the ratios in order to make each gear usable, you would have to do a lot more shifting. Don't know how Toyota would want to market that - A 'sporty' experience,anyone ?

Last edited by rpmx1000 : 21st July 2010 at 14:30.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:25   #334
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Toyota South Africa Has Launched An Updated Version of Their Popular Toyota Corolla Family Sedan | SACarFan


check this out.
In South Africa it comes with 2.0 D-4D.
Indian consumers shortchanged, 2.0 D-4D at 10% higher price in south africa in India you get 1.4 D-4D.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:29   #335
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the main trump card that Toyota has is the ARAI tested fuel economy of 21.43KmpL, although no magazine or website has themselves tested it.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:45   #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
He he.. Why are we so hung up about this 'small' engine and figures? After all
the car moves.

No, not really. People would for the same reasons they buy any maruti that's launched.While I agree on the needing a 2.0 ltr unit part, its a toyota and it ticks the boxes on what people need from a diesel Altis. And I can tell you mango men won't be banging heads on online forums about peak torque and torque curves and engine size. Toyota knows the market too well. Of course they have not delivered from a bhp-ians expectation . But then they might have had cost issues with bringing in a 1.8 diesel or time-to-market issues with developing one from scratch. When a barge like the innova develops 100 bhp and 255 Nm only - and most people are satisfied with the performance, why does this (much lighter) car, with almost similar figures, get the stick so much? No double standards here ?? Look at it from Toyota's perspective,So they cut costs and time to market with this launch. And the average indian will go for it - The only thing that can make this fail in the market is if t-bhpians go and picket the shops with posters screaming "This has a 1.4L engine which makes *only* 90 bhp" - but we don't do that , would we ?

There was another point I wanted to add: - This altis is meant to please all and displease none. The ACI report says it needs some shifting to stick in the powerband. Maybe a 5-speed box could have done real justice to that engine. With a 6-speeder with more differences in the ratios in order to make each gear usable, you would have to do a lot more shifting. Don't know how Toyota would want to market that - A 'sporty' experience,anyone ?
Good points, indeed! If this succeeds, then surely Mileage scores on most other aspects! Even Innova has turbo-lag but its super successful for its overall package and the T logo.

PS: Seems like the H logo is giving in to the T logo offlate? Couple yrs ago, we indians (me included) worshipped anything with the Honda badge.
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:52   #337
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Isn't it the same engine used in Altis elsewhere? Why should we feel shortchanged?
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Old 21st July 2010, 14:53   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWind View Post
What worries me is how stressed the engine is going to be. A major factor for reliability is how much stress the engine has to handle even for conservative driving. The Altis P weights 1200 KG (Max Kerb Weight) and assuming the Diesel will weight 100K more it is going to be 1300 KG and this 1.4 L engine will only stress the car even more no matter how tall (sacrificing FE) or short (sacrificing Top Speed) the gearing is.
The gearing will definitely be short to compensate for the small engine. I suspect this is why 6-Speed is offered so as not to affect top speed in overdrive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyWalker View Post
If ACI TD is to be believed (and i see no reason not to), the engine is pathetic. here's what ACI says
That surely is going to hurt. My guess is its more of a taxi / chauffeur driven car.
SkyWalker. Corrolla/Altis has never been a drivers car. It has always catered to the Taxi/Chauffer segment plus a number of people for whom absolute performance is not a requisite.
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Old 21st July 2010, 15:00   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Isn't it the same engine used in Altis elsewhere? Why should we feel shortchanged?
because we want more cc ,more bhp, more torque,
more bhp per cc
more torque per cc
more torque per bhp
more bhp per (kgm) torque
more value for money
more money for ourselves
more satisfaction
more FE per cc (no matter whether this cc is less or more)
more car per car, more car per cc and more cc per car...-> infinity..

in short "dil maange more". Everyone wants more.ze mind is like ze monkey. jumps everywhere. Excuse the liberties I have taken with the mores. I wasn't thinking of being technically apt.
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:00   #340
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I too feel that 93K is too steep increase over petrol. Innova D vs P difference is about 50k, and then the Innova D engine is bigger than P.
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:13   #341
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Check this Post by Naman. He said he drove the Altis-D in Indore and found no lag!

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...ml#post1988294
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:20   #342
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I just read the ACI test drive. For the one paragraph on the small engine which is somewhat a dissapointment, the rest of the review explains what this car is about. To summarize, 1) Relaible, 2) Refined, 3) Spacious 4) Extemely comfortable.

People are harping on the performance. Corrolla/Altis is never meant to be a Performance car by any stretch of imagination !!
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:21   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4x4addict View Post
The gearing will definitely be short to compensate for the small engine. I suspect this is why 6-Speed is offered so as not to affect top speed in overdrive.
I still stand by my word that this engine is going to be more stressed and so unlike Toyota! This engine is similar to what is offered in i20 (1.4 6-speed Common Rail with VGT) and even then i20 comes out tops with better power and even better torque (~15 NM more) at similar RPM.
Is Toyota the first company in India to offer reduced capacity and power output as they move higher in class segments? (Innova -> Corolla) Best of Luck to them!!!

Last edited by DWind : 21st July 2010 at 16:34.
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:22   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
because we want more cc ,more bhp, more torque,
more bhp per cc
more torque per cc
more torque per bhp
more bhp per (kgm) torque
more value for money
more money for ourselves
more satisfaction
more FE per cc (no matter whether this cc is less or more)
more car per car, more car per cc and more cc per car...-> infinity..

in short "dil maange more". Everyone wants more.ze mind is like ze monkey. jumps everywhere. Excuse the liberties I have taken with the mores. I wasn't thinking of being technically apt.
quiet disheartened seeing the ACI testing figures. I was hoping though its not going to be a great performer atleast with some low ratio gear box and better use of torque it will be atleast as good as the innova to drive in city but like other recent cars gave itself up to the turbo lag, after all its a 1.4 engine. My assumption is atleast 90% people who buy the curze buy it for its performance so its safe. The Linea and the city are those to be worried at the moment.

You are right rpmx1000 we want more and more and more for what we can afford
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Old 21st July 2010, 16:40   #345
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpmx1000 View Post
1) No, not really. People would for the same reasons they buy any maruti that's launched.While I agree on the needing a 2.0 ltr unit part, its a toyota and it ticks the boxes on what people need from a diesel Altis. And I can tell you mango men won't be banging heads on online forums about peak torque and torque curves and engine size. Toyota knows the market too well. Of course they have not delivered from a bhp-ians expectation . But then they might have had cost issues with bringing in a 1.8 diesel or time-to-market issues with developing one from scratch. 2) When a barge like the innova develops 100 bhp and 255 Nm only - and most people are satisfied with the performance, why does this (much lighter) car, with almost similar figures, get the stick so much? No double standards here ?? Look at it from Toyota's perspective,So they cut costs and time to market with this launch. And the average indian will go for it - The only thing that can make this fail in the market is if t-bhpians go and picket the shops with posters screaming "This has a 1.4L engine which makes *only* 90 bhp" - but we don't do that , would we ;) ?

3) There was another point I wanted to add: - This altis is meant to please all and displease none. The ACI report says it needs some shifting to stick in the powerband. Maybe a 5-speed box could have done real justice to that engine. With a 6-speeder with more differences in the ratios in order to make each gear usable, you would have to do a lot more shifting. Don't know how Toyota would want to market that - A 'sporty' experience,anyone ?
1) I think in the long term Toyota is bound to lose if they end up bringing these underpowered engines. Although not mentioned in ACI review, one can easily gauge that they are not happy about the engine. Its an 8V unit, which is a bit odd for the asking price. Considering placement in market, Etios will have a small and less powerful unit and that would equal to disaster due to presence of Tata and Maruti. Toyota has to work a bit more, spend a bit more to bring a larger unit. Altis in India is in higher luxury segment, so wont it be great if they justified the price and market placement with a bigger unit ? 2) Innova caters to a different segment. Its a MUV and people mover. Innova does everything right in that segment. Though the power is 102 bhp, it delivers good torque to keep moving at a good speed with load. Altis, despite being more expensive comes with less than 90 bhp motor. The overall torque curve is also different. I have not driven Altis diesel, but Innova does not suffer for significant turbolag. Innova pulls well from 1500 ( despite the size and weight ), but ACI clearly mentions that Altis is best in range of 2-4K rpm. 3) The biggest problem is turbo lag, that itself is sufficient to disappoint many. I am not sure, but may be due to significant turbolag, the chauffeurs might end up straining the clutch. This is just an assumption, but it is likely. Look at Fortuner, Innova, both of them have a bit less turbo lag complaints. I agree that a 5 speed auto would be helpful but that would bring out the weakness of less power. Toyota equipped Altis diesel with 6 speed box as it was necessary to evenly spread out ratios.
Quote:
Originally Posted by srishiva View Post
Isn't it the same engine used in Altis elsewhere? Why should we feel shortchanged?
IMO, the competition offers a lot better engines, the VW stable cars even have independent rear suspension. Moreover, Altis here is marketed as an entry level luxury/luxury car.

Last edited by aaggoswami : 21st July 2010 at 16:41.
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