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Old 27th May 2010, 00:35   #196
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Originally Posted by Ardy View Post
The entire analysis is really going to help a lot of people on this forum to take decision, especially the ones who would be caught between 2 similarly packaged vehicles.
Glad to help!

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Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
What about A.S.S and brand value? Its not directly measureable. Is that coming too?
Brand value is measurable apparently. Economic Times says Infosys brand is worth Rs. 5,000 crores - not quite sure how they came up with this number though

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Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
Add to Cedia goodies All wheel independent suspensions with rear multi-links (I think none of the other cars listed here has this feature) and All wheel disc brakes (many of the topper don't have this too).
Not sure about the current crop of Optras, but my 6 year old Optra has AWIS with multi-link rear suspension and rear disc brakes. Although we have data on whether a car has rear discs or not, I'm not adding it under 'features' because we are already considering braking distance timings under "safety".

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Originally Posted by echo77 View Post
Smartcat, can you please attach the spreadsheet that you used?
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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I am waiting for Smartcat to post the Excel sheet with all data and then I will compute rankings based on my system and publish it here.
Check attachment - I hope its not too confusing.

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Originally Posted by hummer View Post
Smartcat, Being the proud owner of legendary BALENO, I never thought of parting with it as I couldn't (didn't) compare any new cars with it. Would you be coming up with a similar guide for pre-owned car buyers?
Cars that go out of production will not have a website - so very limited data will be availble. So no ranking on old cars.

Baleno is a strange car - I never used to like its looks when it was launched. But now, whenever I see a baleno with either OEM alloys or nice after-market alloys, I can't help but take a second glance at it. Baleno has aged quite well and actually looks good now!

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Originally Posted by Navneet View Post
Though I am late in pointing this out (final ranking already out) but Maruti Dzire Diesel definitely has internal boot lid opener. It gets another point in the features ranking and should move from 108 to 109 points overall. -Navneet
Changes done - check XL sheet.

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Originally Posted by mkh View Post
It cant get more objective than this. The sales charts reflect something similar,
Yeah, I noticed that too
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx sedans.xlsx (55.6 KB, 470 views)
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Old 27th May 2010, 01:29   #197
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Thanks for the spreadsheet, smartcat!

Dr.AD, looking forward to your analysis as well.

I will attempt a simple 0-1 scale based normalization for values that are measurable. Maybe over the weekend. I am already spending too much time on the forum
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Old 27th May 2010, 06:53   #198
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Default My test drive list !

Hi Smartcat,


Great Job !!

Thanks a ton for the final list. I would like you to know, how you have helped me change the list of my test drive cars.

Well I was originally planning to test drive the following cars in the order of my preference.

*OLD LIST*
1. Honda City : As discussed many times on this forum on comparision between multiple cars, Honda city was my and my wife's first choice. Decent features, performance etc. And a feel of getting a good brand. However i somehow feel that Honda brand has started suffering in the last 1 year or so. Except City they don't really sell volumes. (almost all other cars are not good VFM)

2. SX-4 : I always thought this was the best features car in this segment, plus A.S.S network of Maruti. The dealer is also a good friend.

3. Hyundai Verna: One of my uncle is a big fan of this car, his friend owns this car and he also plans to buy it soon. Being a hyundai, i assumed this would be a VFM car with good A.S.S.

4. Ford Fiesta: I always wanted to TD this car as everyone who owns it and has given reviews on team-bhp has been a fan of the cars driving experience. Even though i'd probably have a driver most of the times, i'd still want a fun to drive car.

5. Swift Dzire: An outside contestant, this was probably going to be a second car which i would have bought just for my parents. My dad's in Indian Air Force and he could just get it for cheap through CSD.


Alright after reading through your thread, here is what the new list looks like.
1. Mitsubishi cedia: This car was never on my list, now it seems to be one of the best option for me, with a 2.0 ltr engine, performance, good driveability, loads of features and good safety. I don't mind high cost of ownership and fuel bills if i have a good car. I'll however have to check their A.S.S in Delhi

2. Optra Magnum: Very good VFM car overall and great engine. This was also never on my list, but now it is definitely there. Specially if i get good discounts on this car, it will move to number - 1 spot on my list. Again will need to check A.S.S record in Delhi.

3. Honda City: My wife just loves this car, and plus this has the AT option available, so still need to keep this on my list.

4. Tata Manza: For the second car, Manza is almost sure to replace Dzire from my list. As the car will mostly be used by my parents, comfort, safety and features are a priority. Again my dad is going to buy it from CSD.


(I have a huge soft corner for a Scorpio as my brother owns one, and i might still go and buy a Scorpio 4X4 Automatic. That would be heart over mind. That would also be something against my wife's wish and I guess if she is dead against Scorpio then i'll just buy a good SUV in 20L range after a year or so)


Thanks again smart cat. It was great fun and suspense to follow this thread over last week. I'll surely let you know what car did I finally decide and why.

-Ajay
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Old 27th May 2010, 07:31   #199
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Hey smartcat how about adding one more criteria. Age . Meaning there will cars which are at virtually end-of-life or they cater to a very very specific segment and some cars which have been launched recently and so have the age on their side. Reasoning behind this is that a car which can be seen in market today and from 5 years from now will have a better resale forget about how much resale it gets.
Let me illustrate my point cars like Indigo marina which cater to a very very specific market like taxi and are really at the end-of-life stage as compared to ANHC which probably will be there in the market 5 years from now. So from a buyers perspective lets forget about a cost difference and feature list difference ANHC makes a better choice than Marina or a Indigo XL.
Just a thought !!

And yeah can you please upload the excel in 2003 excel format. Some of us have 2003 MS-Office so are not able to open xlsx (Office-2007) excel sheets.

--Vikrant
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Old 27th May 2010, 08:12   #200
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Smartcat,

SX4 by default doesn't comes leather seats, ZXi - leather version does. However Cost for the same is still higher than ZXI version. Hence Is SX4 gets goodie points in Luxury Car Features, you should increase the price and re-rank it in price ranking.

Similarly Fiesta 1.6 default doesn't comes with 185+ wide tires. Stock tires in SXI are only 175. Only S version has 195 tires, but doesn't has leather seats. So here too some ranking needs to be adjusted.
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Old 27th May 2010, 09:40   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
best driveability - Comments:
- The Fiat Linea 1.3 diesel takes on its nearest competition - with a sledgehammer in hand!

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
FEATURES & EQUIPMENT Comments:
- Fiat Linea tops the list again. It really has everything that you really need - steering mounted audio controls, dead pedal for comfortable long drives, climate control, front arm rest, rear arm rest, rear AC vents, electric mirrors and nice fat 195/60 R15 tyres with alloys.
FINAL RANKINGS
Comments:- When we consider the features/equipment levels, Linea MJD jumps 7 places and ends up at the 5th place in the rankings. Linea petrol jumps 6 places and just about escapes the poor VFM tag. The upcoming Linea 120 BHP T-Jet shoould be quite interesting, to say the least.

Congratulations and best wishes for the fantastic mission accomplished, smartcat.

I am immensely happy to note that [i] Fiat Linea leads in two rounds [ii] Fiat Linea 1.3 MJD gets a rank of 5 and [iii] Fiat Linea 1.4 FIRE comes under 'fairly decent VFM with a rank of 18. I know, if ride and handling qualities are considered, Fiat Linea's ranking would only go up the ladder.
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Old 27th May 2010, 09:58   #202
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Looking at the rankings Optra 2.0 Diesel is the most VFM vehicle, GM has a fairly good A.S.S. also, just wondering why still its just selling in two digits a month. IMHO Optra with its superb Diesel and overall package can give a good competition to ANHC and the likes.

Awaiting Dr's normalized ranking, hope that can get a clear picture.

And then FIAT needs the T-Jet desperately.
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Old 27th May 2010, 13:20   #203
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I didn't have the patience to wait...

Normalized fundas:

Normalized ranking is like a percentile based comparison between a set of values where the best is assumed to be 100% and the worst is assumed to be 0%.

Quantitative rank does not take into consideration the actual difference in values between the players. For eg, take the first 3 in 0-60:
Octavia - 3.99
Cedia - 4.46
City - 4.58

In quantitative, Octy is given 26, Cedia 25 and City 24

But in reality, while Cedia is 0.47 seconds slower than Octy, City is only 0.12 seconds slower than Cedia
So, Cedia should actually be closer to 24.5 instead of 25 because of this difference.

Normalized rankings take care of this actual difference in the value considered for comparison.

The highest in range gets 1, the lowest in range gets 0 and the rest fall in between based on their values.

Here are the normalized values for performance. The rank at the end is added just for comparison with Smartcat's quantitative rank. Note that the final result will be an addition of normalized values of each category instead of the rank or points as in quantitative ranking.

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Old 27th May 2010, 15:26   #204
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Smartcat was off the thread for the last couple of days, and it's seems done with. Nice analysis at the end,

So for you does the Manza now kind of make sense over the Dzire, what about over the I20? somehow for some it may actually make sence to compare a high spec premium hatchback like I20/Jazz/Fabia/Polo with manza / Linea / city / fiesta / verna / Sx4 as all are essentially in the same price band.

Feel Manza would top that as well as per the parameters which you have been going with.

From my point of view the next vehicle that i will purchase will be an SUV to replace by current 10 year old Safari. So an SUV thread that compares

Top models of Scorpio Manual/ Scorpio Auto / Safari / fortuner / Endy Auto 3.0 / Endy manual 2.5 / Pajero / Captiva Auto (all roughly in the 11-21L OTR range.) would be real fun.
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Old 27th May 2010, 15:34   #205
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Oddly, multi-quote feature doesn't seem to be working.

Quote:
Thanks a ton for the final list. I would like you to know, how you have helped me change the list of my test drive cars. Well I was originally planning to test drive the following cars in the order of my preference.
akaush, that's a very flexible budget you have. If you can spare a few extra lakhs, you can take a look at the Cruze/Laura 1.8 TSi too!

Just remember that in this price range, petrol cars could lose 2/3rd's of their value after 5 years while diesel cars would probably lose only 50% of their value. Of course, this is a not a rule as such. For eg: the Honda City might have a decent resale value at the end of 5 years.

Quote:
Hey smartcat how about adding one more criteria. Age
Vikrant, Even without considering the age, we are automatically putting a heavy weightage on newer generation cars. That's because a modern car will have more safety features & equipment/gadgets (Eg: ANHC) than an aging car (Eg: Lancer), and it shows in the final rankings.

Quote:
And yeah can you please upload the excel in 2003 excel format. Some of us have 2003 MS-Office so are not able to open xlsx (Office-2007) excel sheets.
OK done, check attachment.


Quote:
SX4 by default doesn't comes leather seats, ZXi - leather version does. Similarly Fiesta 1.6 default doesn't comes with 185+ wide tires. Stock tires in SXI are only 175. Only S version has 195 tires, but doesn't has leather seats.
Ragu, Since I do not know the on-road Mumbai price of the leather option in SX4 ZXi, I will remove the feature from the list rather than add to the price. So in this test, we are considering SX4 ZXi rather than SX4 ZXi (Leather).

Fiesta bit is confusing. You mean to say the Fiesta with leather seats option comes with 175 width tyre while the Fiesta with 195 width tyre doesn't come with Leather seats?

Quote:
Fiat Linea 1.4 FIRE comes under 'fairly decent VFM with a rank of 18. I know, if ride and handling qualities are considered, Fiat Linea's ranking would only go up the ladder
Ravi, I agree - this is only half the analysis. When you include ride, handling, steering feel, interiors etc, the ranking (in a buyer's mind) could change drastically.

Quote:
Looking at the rankings Optra 2.0 Diesel is the most VFM vehicle, GM has a fairly good A.S.S. also, just wondering why still its just selling in two digits a month.
Arishi1, we need a new thread for that - Why do some excellent VFM cars bomb in the market?

Quote:
The highest in range gets 1, the lowest in range gets 0 and the rest fall in between based on their values.
echo77, to improve readability, take the highest value to be 100 and the lowest value to be 1 - that will get rid of all the decimal places. Anyway, whatever you have uploaded is not showing up.

Quote:
From my point of view the next vehicle that i will purchase will be an SUV to replace by current 10 year old Safari. So an SUV thread that compares Top models of Scorpio Manual/ Scorpio Auto / Safari / fortuner / Endy Auto 3.0 / Endy manual 2.5 / Pajero / Captiva Auto (all roughly in the 11-21L OTR range.) would be real fun.
ACM - SUV ranking is definitely coming up next! Personally, I think you should wait for the Yeti

Quote:
So for you does the Manza now kind of make sense over the Dzire, what about over the I20?
hehehe! Guess what! After looking at numerous diesel small cars & sedans, I finally bought a pre-owned Hyundai Tucson - just paid a token advance, haven't taken the delivery yet. Details of that coming in an ownership thread
Attached Files
File Type: xls sedans.xls (135.5 KB, 322 views)

Last edited by smartcat : 27th May 2010 at 15:43.
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Old 27th May 2010, 15:53   #206
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echo77, to improve readability, take the highest value to be 100 and the lowest value to be 1 - that will get rid of all the decimal places. Anyway, whatever you have uploaded is not showing up.
Hmmm I had deleted the attachment while posting... here it is in attachment form:
Attached Thumbnails
Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-carnor1.png  

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Old 27th May 2010, 16:47   #207
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Smartcat's analyses might sell more Cedia's than Mitsubishi's marketing dept. ever managed!
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Old 27th May 2010, 17:08   #208
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Ragu, Since I do not know the on-road Mumbai price of the leather option in SX4 ZXi, I will remove the feature from the list rather than add to the price. So in this test, we are considering SX4 ZXi rather than SX4 ZXi (Leather).

Fiesta bit is confusing. You mean to say the Fiesta with leather seats option comes with 175 width tyre while the Fiesta with 195 width tyre doesn't come with Leather seats?
Smartcat,

Roughly 30K more in exshowroom price for SX4 leather to non-leather(carwale states 9.2lakhs)!

As of Fiesta, yes! Fiesta 1.6 SXI comes with leather but with 175/65 R14 tires. Fiesta 1.6 S Comes with fabric seats, with 195/55 R15 tires, but leather wrapped steering wheel! Sadly All version of Fiesta diesel have 175/65 R14 wheels (because there is no S version in Diesel). Both 1.6 SXI & 1.6 S cost same!
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Old 28th May 2010, 00:24   #209
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Originally Posted by echo77 View Post
Hmmm I had deleted the attachment while posting... here it is in attachment form:
I see that you have marked the major difference in the rankings of the cars. Your XL sheet is not only more accurate, its more attractively done up too

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Smartcat's analyses might sell more Cedia's than Mitsubishi's marketing dept. ever managed!
hehe OK. I wonder if the Cedia can hold its ground against Corolla, Civic & the Laura petrol . After all, when the Cedia was launched, it was targeted at the Corolla buyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaguHolla View Post
Smartcat, Roughly 30K more in exshowroom price for SX4 leather to non-leather(carwale states 9.2lakhs)!
As of Fiesta, yes! Fiesta 1.6 SXI comes with leather but with 175/65 R14 tires. Fiesta 1.6 S Comes with fabric seats, with 195/55 R15 tires, but leather wrapped steering wheel! Sadly All version of Fiesta diesel have 175/65 R14 wheels (because there is no S version in Diesel). Both 1.6 SXI & 1.6 S cost same!
Got it. Will update my XL sheet and will publish it when we remove Octavia petrol and add DZire petrol into the list.
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Old 28th May 2010, 08:56   #210
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post

Fiesta bit is confusing. You mean to say the Fiesta with leather seats option comes with 175 width tyre while the Fiesta with 195 width tyre doesn't come with Leather seats?

Yes this is true the 195 width is available only in the sport "S" model and this has lowered suspension and higher width tyres, spoiler kit and from sport point of view fancy black upholstery but no leather. While the top SXi model is the normal suspension car with Leather etc.

ACM - SUV ranking is definitely coming up next! Personally, I think you should wait for the Yeti

Yeti - 5 seater so a major deterant in the sence that it does not become a 7 seater even when required, also the engines are likely to be under powered in the case of Diesel and fuel consuming in the case of petrol.
Having a Skoda Laura - can vouch for the fact that the service and spares cost do increase white hair, but the main worry has been reliability. Have lived through 2 turbo failures + 2 turbo pipe failures, AC compressor change, DSG gear, Flywheel etc issues.

hehehe! Guess what! After looking at numerous diesel small cars & sedans, I finally bought a pre-owned Hyundai Tucson - just paid a token advance, haven't taken the delivery yet. Details of that coming in an ownership thread
Congrats - A good selection

Last edited by ACM : 28th May 2010 at 09:01.
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