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Old 29th April 2011, 15:48   #331
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Great effort. Thanks so much for the compilation. This will definitely work as a guideline for anyone who is looking for a sedan. In addition, one should also look towards A.S.S., spare parts costs, availability, resale value etc. Thanks once again.
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Old 29th April 2011, 16:02   #332
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
What is the point for doing this comparison? Market doesn't go by any set standard or measures. Total points shown for DZire are 25-30 but it leads the market with sales charts from day one almost. Optra & Cedia leads the charts in terms of points, but in reality people don't buy it anymore or hardly any buys.
The reason this thread is relevant is that most of people go by the word of mouth. And that is not exactly making an informed decision. Making an informed decision is a time taking process which takes effort. To those who are willing to undertake such efforts before plonking the hard earned cash on the table, this thread is invaluable.
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Old 29th April 2011, 16:04   #333
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Nice reference for a buyer in this category.
Each buyer would have his own needs , on which this ranking could be of help in choosing the parameter that is of interest and utility to the user.

Cheers!
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Old 29th April 2011, 16:35   #334
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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Originally Posted by darksoul View Post
Out of curiosity: Where does the new Hyundai Verna fit in on this list?
The new Verna will figure in the 2012 list!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
What is the point for doing this comparison? Market doesn't go by any set standard or measures. Total points shown for DZire are 25-30 but it leads the market with sales charts from day one almost. Optra & Cedia leads the charts in terms of points, but in reality people don't buy it anymore or hardly any buys.
Extending the logic a bit more, the best hatchback money can buy would be the Maruti Alto (38,000 units sold in April).

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Originally Posted by specialist1968 View Post
In addition, one should also look towards A.S.S., spare parts costs, availability, resale value etc. Thanks once again.
I just got what I think is a brilliant idea - I wish somebody was here with me to pat my back! After the quantitative ranking, I will be assigning ratings to all the cars based on qualitative factors like resale value, spare part cost, looks, ride, handling, steering feel & feedback etc. And "my" ratings will be based on what team-bhp car owners think about their cars - so the ratings will be fair.

Watch this thread over the next few days.


--------------------------------------------------------------


Appended "Comfort & Convenience" sub-category:

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-comfort.jpg


Appended rankings for Features:

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Appended rankings for cars with the best compromise between performance, practicality and features:

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Old 29th April 2011, 16:58   #335
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

I recently checked out the Oprta Magnum 2.0 Diesel. It doesn't have electric folding mirrors even on the top end LT. Only its petrol sibling has it. Also they have recently changed the looks of the alloys. I feel the Optra's which came out prior to 2010 had better looking wheels on them. To keep tab on the costs. Chevy has left the inside of the trunk and hood unpainted (with only base primer). These are minor factors to live with on day to day basis. The base LS is more car per car and a sure bang for the buck if you need sheer space and outright performance. To me its just another grown up Swift diesel (no pun intended).
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Old 29th April 2011, 21:21   #336
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Are you sure about this? Mitsubishi website mentions leather seats, GPS navi etc on their brochure. What have they done to the price? Has it been lowered too?
Yes, chk this thread, post 140 also has an attachment. http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ed-9-9l-3.html (New Mitsubishi Cedia Sports Launched at 9.9L)

Also, I guess the price has been lowered by about 70 thousand.
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Old 30th April 2011, 00:53   #337
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

ROUND NUMBER 4 - SAFETY


Since we don't have EuroNCAP ratings for all the cars sold in India, we depend on 100 kmph to zero braking distance as a decisive factor for ranking the safety of cars. Research has shown that almost all head-on collisions occurred because one or both the vehicles involved in the accident could not stop in time (I made that up ).


100 kmph to Standstill - Braking Distance in metres:

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-brakingdistance.jpg




We also consider safety features like presence of driver & passenger side airbags, ABS & EBD.

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-safetyfeatures.jpg



We now assign either 25 pts or 0 pts for all cars for each of the 4 safety features. Electronic Brake Force Distribution is as important as ABS. I have personally avoided a crash because of EBD on my Civic when I was forced to hit the brakes and turn the steering wheel at the same time on a fast curve - the Civic followed the curve without losing composure or skidding - only because of EBD.

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-totalsafetypoints.jpg



Re-basing the points on a scale of 1 to 25, the safety rankings of our cars looks like this -

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-safetypts25to1.jpg



Comments:

- Rear discs equipped Linea T-Jet stops from 100 kmph in just 41.1 metres while the rear drum brakes equipped 1.4L Linea petrol takes 7.7 metres more to stop.

- Diesel engined cars have a 10 to 15% longer stopping distance than their respective petrol engined siblings. Apparently, engine braking is not so effective in diesel engined cars (plus there is the extra weight of the diesel engine)- so this is something one needs to keep in mind when buying a diesel.

- Optra diesel is an exception though. It stops in 49.5 metres while Optra petrol takes 54.6 metres. Reason? Optra diesel is equipped with rear discs while the petrol version has to make do with drums at the rear.

It's time for the manufacturers to equip all their cars with rear discs!

- The Verna being sold right now has no airbags. But the new one that will be launched next month will have six!


Ranking of cars that offer the best compromise between performance, practicality, features & safety -


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-finalrankings.jpg



Coming up next - ranking of cars based on their running costs (fuel costs) and the on-road price.
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Old 30th April 2011, 12:32   #338
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

I can verify the braking distance of the T-Jet Plus, it's quite a revelation to have a car come to a standstill so quickly. I missed a blind U-turn one night, and ended up not having to miss it after all.

One car that is missing in the list is the T-Jet, the regular version with 15" steel wheels and no leather upholstery, it's also about 40k cheaper. IINM the car is otherwise identical.
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Old 30th April 2011, 15:42   #339
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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Originally Posted by cranky View Post
I can verify the braking distance of the T-Jet Plus, it's quite a revelation to have a car come to a standstill so quickly. I missed a blind U-turn one night, and ended up not having to miss it after all.
If you had tried that stunt with a Logan behind you, your Linea T-Jet would have magically transformed into a Punto T-Jet!


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ROUND NUMBER 5: RUNNING COSTS

Since we are only interested in ranking, we take the ARAI fuel efficiency numbers. Although the ARAI numbers are unrealistic, the ranking of cars with lowest to highest running costs can be obtained by looking at those numbers.

Ranking of cars with highest to lowest fuel efficiency:

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Assuming that the petrol price @ Rs. 62 per litre and diesel price @ Rs. 42 per litre, we get the ranking of lowest to highest running costs for each car:

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-runningcosts.jpg



Ranking of cars with the best compromise between performance, practicality, features, safety & running costs:

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-total.jpg




Comments:

- Vento diesel quietly tops the chart without drawing too much attention to itself.

- SX4 Diesel is the jack of all trades and master of none. Scores above average in all categories.
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Old 30th April 2011, 17:10   #340
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Quote:
If you had tried that stunt with a Logan behind you
I don't think the rearview mirror range is good enough to see Logans behind me

Thanks for the comparo, very interesting to see how intuition pans out in real life!
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Old 1st May 2011, 20:11   #341
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Excellent thread Smartcat. Although the methodology might not be scientifically correct, it does help in analyzing different cars without any bias whatsoever.

1. In practicality, instead of no of dealership, we should use function of (No of dealerships and manufacturer's ratings in JD Power customer satisfaction score). Just having more no of dealers and service centers need not mean they will deliver excellent service. This will also lift Maruti, Honda, Toyota up, pushing Tatas down a bit, which in my opinion is more realistic. Not sure if this will have impact on overall rating but it will certainly change the practicality scores. For someone in the market for a practical car, this could mean a lot.

2. In petrol sedans, T-Jet has a conclusive lead over City so far. Unfortunately that does not translate into better sales figures for Fiat. This underlines the weightage that Brand value and After Sales has in the overall decision making process.

Last edited by Rock 'n' rollz : 1st May 2011 at 20:15.
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Old 2nd May 2011, 13:52   #342
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Amazing amount of work put in, Smartcat for this wonderful thread.

Now, each person has a different importance/weightage attached to different aspects of a car. To make the data even more usable it would be great if on the top of the excel sheet, you made a few cells where one could put in a value (0 to 10 or) to give the weightage to apects like Price, Features, Safety, Performance etc.

The basic sheet you upload could be with the same value to all.

Thanks a lot for this thread. Besides being useful, is fun to read too.
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Old 3rd May 2011, 00:48   #343
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock 'n' rollz View Post
Although the methodology might not be scientifically correct, it does help in analyzing different cars without any bias whatsoever.
If readers can get an idea about the relative strengths and weaknesses of each car from this analysis, I will be happy!

Quote:
1. In practicality, instead of no of dealership, we should use function of (No of dealerships and manufacturer's ratings in JD Power customer satisfaction score).
Number of dealers & quality of service are equally important. That's why Maruti manages to push so many cars every month.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
The basic sheet you upload could be with the same value to all.
Dr. AD had modified the XL sheet for assinging a weightage for each category last time. When I upload the sheet later, you just add a weightage column on top row!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

ROUND NO. 6 - ON ROAD PRICE

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I have come up with a new, not-so-conentional method of comparing ride quality, handling, after sales service etc of each car. I will be incorporating this into our overall ranking so that we get a complete car buyer's guide. I wil be explaining the methodology later, but this is what we will be comparing for each car -

- Looks
- Build Quality
- Interiors
- Comfort (Driver ergonomics & rear seat comfort)
- Refinement (Engine & gearbox characterisitics)
- Ride Quality
- Handling
- Steering feel, feedback & directness
- Authorized Service Center experience
- Maintenance Costs
- Overall Reliability
- Resale Value (Depreciation)

Methodology: I will be using Team-BHP Reviews to collect bits of info for all the above parameters for each car. Team-BHP reviews of all the cars are available under TEST DRIVES link of the home page
Team-BHP - The Definitive Indian Car Community - Test Drives

The ranking and points assigned to each car will be based on my interpretation of Team-BHP review. If a few cases (like 10%), the review might not be clear enough to arrive at a ranking - at such times, I will be ranking the cars based on my discretion (since I have test driven almost all the cars in the lineup)




ROUND NO. 7 - RIDE QUALITY


A car that handles bad roads at both low speeds and high speeds will top the list. Next in line will be the cars which might be a tad stiff at low speeds but improve once the speed picks up. Suspension of such cars are generally tuned for good handling. After that, cars which have good low speed ride but boat like high speed ride follow.

Comparing the ride quality of each car in our lineup -

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-ridequality.jpg



Being an owner of an Optra for 6 years and 100,000 kms, I can say for sure that there is no other car in the list that can match its ride quality! I'm pretty sure multi-link rear suspension has something to do with it - Indigo CS & XL too has this feature.


ROUND NO.8 - HANDLING

Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-handling.jpg


ROUND NO. 9 - STEERING FEEL, FEEDBACK & DIRECTNESS



Hydraulic power steering (for "natural" steering feel), well weighed steering, steers quickly (without much play) and offer loads of feedback - cars with such a steering will top the list. Cars with electric power steering units that are feather light to operate & those that don't offer any feedback will populate the bottom half.

Note that this ranking is for driving enthusiasts. However, if you actually like a car that has light steering (for ease of parking or pottering around in the city, for example), then you might want to ignore this section altogether.


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-steering.jpg



Ranking of cars that offer the best compromise between performance, practicality, blah blah blah:


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-total.jpg



Right now, Lineas & even a Manza is infesting the top half of the table. That might change when we bring after sales service, resale value, interior quality, maintenance costs etc into the equation.

Last edited by smartcat : 3rd May 2011 at 00:59.
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Old 3rd May 2011, 06:55   #344
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Definitely I would have mentioned elsewhere in this thread, but once again - Excellent thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
when we bring after sales service, resale value, interior quality, maintenance costs etc into the equation.
What's Sales service? Is it how the customers were handled when they approach to buy a car? or Sales and vehicle service experiences?

Adding maintenance costs would be really helpful for decision making
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Old 3rd May 2011, 08:49   #345
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Hi Smartcat,

Excellent thread. I had no comments so far. But I do not agree with your latest categories. By rating ride, handling and steering feedback as three different categories, you are effectively giving it a weightage of 3. My suggestion for categories would be:
- Performance
- Practicality
- Features
- Safety
- Costs (Includes Running costs and Price)
- On-road behavior (Includes Ride, Handling and Steering)

Anyways, the final call is yours.

PS: Following this thread with interest and waiting for you to add the new Verna and Fiesta to it at some later date.
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