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Old 3rd May 2011, 09:47   #346
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Amazing input Smartcat

Honestly man really makes me proud to be a part of this forum.

The other day, I test drove the Optra Magnum TCDI and my wife casually asked the SE "Kitna deta hai" and he comes up with this, "easily about 17kmpl mam', actually you can check TBHP for an official Test drive"!! I had a HUGE on my face. We are on the lookout for <11lk sedan and I am glued to this thread now, which should make my decision!!
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Old 3rd May 2011, 20:09   #347
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Amazing input Smartcat

Honestly man really makes me proud to be a part of this forum.
Second that. Just imagine the amount of time he is putting to get to the ranking. Amazing. The least I can say is "Take a bow"

I totally agree with the simple system of ranking that he is using. Sometimes simplest things work the best.

Last edited by dot : 3rd May 2011 at 20:12.
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Old 3rd May 2011, 20:34   #348
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Amazing thread with tons of information! I have been following this thread for a long time and it never ceases to surprise me. Keep it up!
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Old 4th May 2011, 12:36   #349
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surprise View Post
What's Sales service?
I meant After Sales Service - as in the customer experience at the service center when you take your car for repair or servicing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnredkar View Post
By rating ride, handling and steering feedback as three different categories, you are effectively giving it a weightage of 3. My suggestion for categories would be:
- Performance
- Practicality
- Features
- Safety
- Costs (Includes Running costs and Price)
- On-road behavior (Includes Ride, Handling and Steering)
Most magazines rate cars based on the categories you have mentioned. For now, I'll dump everything in the table as it is. The 2012 rankings table will be much more logical and fair to all the cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
We are on the lookout for <11lk sedan and I am glued to this thread now, which should make my decision!!
Oh, and the Getz? Is it getting the axe so soon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dot View Post
Just imagine the amount of time he is putting to get to the ranking. Amazing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunilM View Post
Amazing thread with tons of information!
I wish my wife was this appreciative about my efforts. I have been banned from posting on this thread after 10:00 PM from now on


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

ROUND NO. 10 - AUTHORIZED SERVICE CENTER EXPERIENCE


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-service.jpg




The rankings are mostly based on Team-BHP reviews. But if the review is not very clear, I'm relying on JD Power survey (Eg: JD Power ranks General Motors at almost the bottom of the table.)


ROUND NO. 11 - MAINTENANCE COSTS

The overall maintenance cost of a car over a period of time depends on -

- Warranty coverage
- Cost of spare parts
- Part quality and reliability of the car
- Service (labour etc) charges
- Frequency of service required as mandated by the manufacturer

Cars with low/average maintenance costs with a combination of good/excellent reliability will top the "maintenance costs" table. Reliability is important because higher the reliability, lower will be sudden unexpected expenses like replacement of AC compressor etc.


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-maintenance.jpg



We don't have maintenance costs reports on new cars like Vento, Linea, Etios & Manza. For such cars, I'm assigning "average" points/ranking for now. Will update this as we start getting reports.


TOTAL RANKINGS / POINTS TABLE:



Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-total.jpg




The Good (Maruti) Vs Evil (Fiat) battle starts getting interesting - Bollywood potboiler style. Marutis finally enter the top of the overall rankings table with 5 more rounds to go

Last edited by smartcat : 4th May 2011 at 12:49.
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Old 4th May 2011, 12:56   #350
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

This last table is looking much better now. Giving better idea than earlier tables. I guess it should be further divided into 2 groups like sedans & performance sedans. DZire, Manza, Accent, etc are basically just normal sedans & family oriented people will buy it. People who wants performance with style will for cars like SX4, Linea, Optra etc. Also there is a wide gap of pricing as well in the above mentioned cars. Cars are basically from 6 to 12 lacs. So people who have strict budget of 6-7 lacs will have lesser choice & not much options.
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Old 4th May 2011, 14:54   #351
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Wonderful work in progress, Smartcat. And all before 10pm!!

One sees that the Optra's have been ranked higher than the Logan etc. in the maintenance cost table. Has the maintenance cost been seen as an absolute figure or as a function of the car's purchase price?

If it is regardless of the purchase price, it just gives me another reason to wonder why the Optra wasn't a LOT more successful (amazing diesel engine, very comfortable seats, plush and composed ride, selling at the price half/one segment lower, fairly good FE for it's size, excellent brakes etc). Any thoughts?
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Old 4th May 2011, 15:28   #352
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Smartcat Great Going but:

Somehow the Service bias basis TBHP reviews ends up being "your personal" interpretation of subjective comments.

Would recommend that you go for the JD Power Study in place of this as it is more neutral and balanced while being objective.

With the best being 25, the worst simply cannot be 3 the differential in service quality is not so huge.

Also if you look at the JD power study (which actually covers a slightly different aspect) the ratings that you have do not match up.

SC dont go by the wordings, this is just my take on it.

Last edited by ACM : 4th May 2011 at 15:30.
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Old 4th May 2011, 16:16   #353
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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Originally Posted by aniketi View Post
Also there is a wide gap of pricing as well in the above mentioned cars. Cars are basically from 6 to 12 lacs. So people who have strict budget of 6-7 lacs will have lesser choice & not much options.
If somebody has a budget of Rs. 6 - 7 Lacs, they could only look at the relative strengths and weaknesses of cars that come under the price range - and ignore the Cedias, T-Jets and City's. Basically, a buyer has a shortlist of cars based on his affordablity - he could then compare the relative performances of cars from his shortlist with this ranking table.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Poitive View Post
One sees that the Optra's have been ranked higher than the Logan etc. in the maintenance cost table. Has the maintenance cost been seen as an absolute figure or as a function of the car's purchase price?
My interpretation is that it is an absolute figure. If two cars have "average" maintenance costs but one has "excellent reliability (no unexpected expenses, only wear & tear parts replaced) and the other has "above avg reliability" (Unexpected expenses like ECU problems along with wear & tear parts), the former has to be placed above the latter.

Personally, I've had an occasional reliability issue with the Optra - AC compressor died and had to be replaced for Rs. 40,000 @ 80K kms. A "normal" service used to cost around Rs. 6,000 (with a few wear & tear parts replaced). "Major" service used to cost anywhere between Rs. 12,000 to Rs. 18,000. But then, that's just my experience and that too for the 1.8 litre petrol model. The best part was service duration - 10,000 kms or 1 year.

Not sure how much Logan costs to maintain over a long period of time.


Quote:
If it is regardless of the purchase price, it just gives me another reason to wonder why the Optra wasn't a LOT more successful (amazing diesel engine, very comfortable seats, plush and composed ride, selling at the price half/one segment lower, fairly good FE for it's size, excellent brakes etc). Any thoughts?
It was pretty successful in the beginning actually. GM used to shift around 600 units per month, competing with the Octavia, Corolla and the Elantra. It's just that it has been around for 8 years now. And no - its not about the "brand name" either. Cruze and Captiva are selling quite well inspite of carrying the Chevrolet tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Would recommend that you go for the JD Power Study in place of this as it is more neutral and balanced while being objective.
Also if you look at the JD power study (which actually covers a slightly different aspect) the ratings that you have do not match up.
Are you sure JD Power ranking is a good idea? Isn't Team-BHP owners' review better?

My main issue with JD Power rankings is that they only interview owners who bought their cars recently (Maximum one or 2 years back I think, not sure). But the real issues start only after a few years of ownership. The JD Power ends up mostly being a ranking of companies based on how polite the service advisor was or whether the car was cleaned properly and delivered at the promised time.


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That's why the ranking keeps changing every year. Fiat was at the bottom in 2009 and now its suddenly in the 2nd place!
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Old 4th May 2011, 16:26   #354
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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My main issue with JD Power rankings is that they only interview owners who bought their cars recently (Maximum one or 2 years back I think, not sure). But the real issues start only after a few years of ownership. The JD Power ends up mostly being a ranking of companies based on how polite the service advisor was or whether the car was cleaned properly and delivered at the promised time.

That's why the ranking keeps changing every year. Fiat was at the bottom in 2009 and now its suddenly in the 2nd place!
Spot on. I have long lost all the faith in these magazines and surveys.
Eagerly waiting for the Hatchback ranking for this year.
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Old 4th May 2011, 17:59   #355
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Wow smartcat, this is amazing. The report shows the kind of work that goes into it. Really appreciate the effort. Dont stop, bring it on. Soon you will have to include the NFS and the ANHV, the battle will tighten ever more. Kudos to you for the effort.
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Old 5th May 2011, 14:13   #356
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

SC agree that JD Power rating is not the absolute best, but it does seem to have neutrality. The problem with TBHP rating that you have used is the subjective comments translation to points and I for one am not in sync on the ratings there in. Am not in absolute agreement on JD power either as any car with more features has more that can go wrong (read german cars) and a car with lesser no of features has lesser failure points and also the relative seriousness of the fault is also not considered.

The thing is that a parameter when added should be clearly measurable that does not seem to be the case with this parameter. It is just a subjective conversion. I would probably do it differents (and yet also incorrectly) hence it may be better to avoid this parameter totally unless you can get an independent thirdparty rating (the way you have done for most other parameters).
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Old 5th May 2011, 21:52   #357
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

I am absolutely in love with this thread. What better time to stumble upon this thread when I would be in the market in the coming months to hunt a replacement for my aging Indica. The last couple of parameters like Maintenance costs, Reliability of parts, Service Centre experience etc matter a lot, especially for people like me who intend to keep their car for 6-8 years at the least. Hope the new Verna & Fiesta would soon get added to this list. Whichever car I choose finally, I am sure, the rankings in this thread will play a major role in my ultimate decision.

Thanks once again to Smartcat & all others who have contributed (& will continue to contribute) to enhance this ever evolving thread
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Old 6th May 2011, 10:33   #358
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

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Oh, and the Getz? Is it getting the axe so soon?



No Smartcat I did not pick up GETZ by chance. I really like the way GETZ PRIME has been designed.

It may not be as Gorgeous as the Italian Punto or even as sharp as the German Polo, but its just that contemporary design which I appreciate.

We are looking for a Highway Oil burner that is powerful, economical and nominal to maintain. This amazing effort you are putting in is so addictive that my wife has started reminding me everyday to check this thread for updates!!
That only makes me once again your effort!! AWESOME.
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Old 6th May 2011, 11:36   #359
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

Somehow I see that when it comes to Maintenance and Service center experience of Ford vehicles, People and their perception are still stuck on to 'Expensive" and 'Non cooperative' tag!

For e.g. SX4 maintenance cheaper than Fiesta ! Blimey! I know its not true. In one year (I know its not enough as a experience), only thing I spent is on consumables! Each time it will be around 1.5K. Ford now also has a child part which reduces cost considerably. My colleague has spent more in Dzire than I have spent on Fiesta 1.6 SXI. So this table won't make any justification.

How many manufacture allow you to write to their MD if service center act high handed! Ford does this. You are always guaranteed to get fare treatment from Ford.

Last edited by RaguHolla : 6th May 2011 at 11:37. Reason: Added missing Ford vehicle
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Old 6th May 2011, 11:49   #360
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Default Re: Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking

From what I've read, both Ford and GM are working quite hard on reducing the maintenance cost for their customers. Ford apparently used to replace an entire assembly of an expensive component if one part malfunctioned. This was their normal practice in Europe. Now, they have apparently trained the Ford service engineers to repair the malfunctioning part, rather than replace the component.

It is to be seen if it affects the reliability of the car though.
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