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Old 18th May 2010, 15:53   #61
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Originally Posted by akaush View Post
Wow... I was in fact waiting for the sedan's and SUV data just like the small cars you did sometimes back. (will wait for some more time for SUV data)
I'm thinking about SUV ranking, but its a toughie. Offroadability is a subjective aspect and is not measurable with numbers. However, 2wd SUV/MPV/MUV ranking might be feasible.

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We are now also thinking about Optra, and ANHC suddenly doesnt seem to be "THE BEST CAR FOR US". Thanks dude !!
I always knew many customers (including myself) look at both petrol and diesel cars in a price range. But magazines never compare a petrol car with a diesel car, for some inexplicable reason.

Regarding Optra diesel Vs ANHC, it is quite obvious that Optra diesel has a big advantage over ANHC when it comes to running costs - inherently fuel efficient diesels plus cost difference between petrol & diesel. However, keep depreciation in mind too - being an Optra owner, I know that its depreciation curve resembles an abyss/cliff. ANHC will have a better resale value.

However, I'm not sure if Optra diesels too depreciate like Optra petrols. Do check some used car websites to get a rough idea about depreciation.

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Originally Posted by arishi1 View Post
I was expecting the high scores from Optra 2.0 TDCI, thats the biggest diesel in this category.
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Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
I thought the mangnum had a better 0-100 timings. for louzy 30-80 and 40-100, turbolag is the culprit. Take the runs in a gear lower and it will give you far better timings apart from the headrush! (especially 30-80 in 2nd.. whoa!!)
From the stats, it looks like the Optra diesel's performance is very impressive - no wonder they plonked that engine in Captiva & Cruze too. Even, the in-gear acceleration numbers are not exactly bad. That's why, in the overall ranking, Optra diesel comes very close to the first place.

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Originally Posted by LithiumSunset View Post
I am in the hunt for a sedan and your thread is so timely..
Glad to know that this thread is helping!

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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
1. The point system of giving 25 points to the top car and 1 points to the bottom car is a bit unfair. The bottom car may be very close to the top car in a given category (e.g. performance) and may not deserve such harsh penalty.
Although it seems to be unfair, as you have mentioned yourself, the high & low values will cancel itself out - I think it is a good property! When we look at the overall scores via addition, the "normalization" will be done automatically.

Example No. 1: It seems unfair to give the Tata Nano 1 point each for performance & driveability, but it still manages to beat 4 or 5 cars at the end - because of excellent pricing, good FE, decent practicality & features. And when you look at the overall snapshot where we look at all the parameters (performance, FE, features etc) of the Nano, you will exactly know what you are losing out and what are you getting in return.

Example No. 2: We are being unfairly partial to Ford Ikon diesel by awarding high points for driveability. It is decently priced and has excellent FE too. In the next 2 rounds, you will notice that Ford Ikon diesel will probably be among top 3 cars. This seems quite illogical. But when we bring in the same system of awarding points (26, 25, 24...) for measuring safety & features, you will notice that Ikon diesel will go down the rankings.

Basically, multiple parameters & addition of points in each parameters automatically takes care of normalization, and also keeps the scoring system fairly simple.

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Therefore, I would like to suggest a “normalized” point system as follows:
Had to read it twice, but I understood! And this is not very difficult to implement either with the help of MS Excel. And yes, you are right - it makes the ranking system much more accurate.

But as ACM mentioned, it makes the scoring system very complicated & difficult to understand for many. We will be going further away from the KISS philosophy. Also this scoring system cannot be using to rank EQUIPMENT & SAFETY.

Quote:
The most accurate way of compounding these scores (over different variables) is to calculate the area of a polygon, where each axis of the polygon corresponds to normalized score for that car in each category, with origin at (0,0,0…) for each category.
Doc, Are you a PHD type of doc?

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Please let me know what you think about these suggestions. Please feel free to let me know if I have missed something of if this does not make sense.
As ACM suggested, I will stick to points system in descending order for simplicity, readability & usability. But I will also upload my XL sheet at the end - anybody can work on it with your much accurate system of ranking cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pnredkar View Post
I remember that you had asked about how to update the rankings automatically. You can use the "RANK" function in Excel. I have attached an excel sheet that illustrates this formula.
hey thanks Prasad. Makes my life a bit easier.

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Originally Posted by lifeonwheels View Post
The style of ranking seems to be reasonable and the results acn't said to be far from reality.
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Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Dr. AD and Smartcat. Nice suggestion on Normalizing the values. But But this makes it complex inspite of being fairer. Though unfair, I would still recommend that Smartcat atleast for now goes ahead with the analysis the way he is going it. It keeps the process transparent.
Bingo.

Quote:
But the normalization method could also be carried out in parallel. There is a major value to it as well.
Bang on target again. It would be interesting to see how different the results would be.




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Originally Posted by vasoo View Post
Excellent work smartcat. By the way, the in-gear acceleration listed in ACI website is actually for 20-80 kmph in third gear and not 30-80 as mentioned in your analysis. Please correct the same.
20 - 80 kmph it is - thanks! City driving speeds zone.

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Originally Posted by arnabchak View Post
The Verna Diesel coming on tops among petrol heads is a surprise. The Fiesta Diesel languishing towards the bottom of the table is also pretty surprising!!
The same 1.4 TDCi diesel in the Ikon is faring much better - probably something to do with Fiesta's extra weight or gearing.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:06   #62
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I have always thought Optra as next option to Cedia and this interesting analysis seem to support my idea. Smarcat, Accept my sincere appreciations for this great work that you are doing. Awaiting more episodes on this.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:39   #63
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Originally Posted by RajaTaurus View Post
I have always thought Optra as next option to Cedia and this interesting analysis seem to support my idea. Smarcat, Accept my sincere appreciations for this great work that you are doing. Awaiting more episodes on this.
Optra diesel, yes - but not the petrol version. Seems like a dull boy.


Round No. 3 - RUNNING COSTS


The most important parameter for many buyers. The ARAI fuel efficiency rankings of all the cars in our test -


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However, because of the price difference between petrol & diesel, the above table does not reveal the true picture - we need to calculate the cost in rupees per km. Assuming petrol price to be Rs. 50/litre and diesel price to be Rs. 39/litre, the ranking of sedans under Rs. 12 Lacs based on their running costs looks like this -


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Comments:

- Neat bifurcation of the table - Diesels at the top, petrols at the bottom. The worst "running costs" diesel car is better than the best "running costs" petrol car.

- You would expect the Honda City to be the most fuel efficient petrol car, but its actually the Verna petrol.

- Most of the powerful petrols at the bottom of the rankings.

- Mitsubishi Lancer diesel finally says "Hello, I'm here too!".


Coming up next -

Having the Cake & Eating It too.
Having the best of both worlds

The ranking of cars that offer the best compromise between performance, driveability and runnings costs:


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Comments:

- Verna diesel's incredible FE, decent driveability and excellent outright acceleration takes it to the top of the table.

- Among the petrols, top quartile rankings for the three parameters keep the Honda City on the top of the petrol car rankings.

- Dzire Vs Manza Vs Linea diesel battle continues, and all have somewhat similar characteristics.

- Among the old gen petrol sedans (Ikon Vs Accent Vs Indigo family Vs Aveo), the Tata cars have a slight edge because of decent performance and driveability.

- Among old gen diesel sedans, there is no contest - Ikon rules.

- Poor ARAI FE along with ordinary performance & driveability takes the Fiat Linea 1.4 petrol to the bottom of the pack. However, it can only go up from here - Linea 1.4 petrol should do well in the next few rounds.

Last edited by smartcat : 18th May 2010 at 18:42.
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Old 18th May 2010, 18:50   #64
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I'm proud of my choice. 'Mein Schwarzer Hengst' (thats what i call my boy magnum)

The analasys would gives a fair picture to a new buyer but he must understand how the points are given to actually use it.

I agree that diesels cant be compare to petrols, but this analysis gives a cross comparions and it makes it clear on 3 different aspects. I like that. Good job there

Last edited by benzinblut : 18th May 2010 at 18:53.
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Old 18th May 2010, 19:18   #65
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Diesel boys, don't rejoice too fast. Coming up next.

- Initial purchase price (on-road Mumbai prices)

The petrols are going to be back with a vengeance. But I have a feeling the Ikon TDCi is going to end up on top in the next round.

Last edited by Gilead : 18th May 2010 at 19:30.
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Old 18th May 2010, 19:47   #66
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Great thread and even greater effort there Smartcat!! Just ranked five stars!

This thread brings to fore my long buried thought of a replacement for my workhorse, the Accent Viva CRDi. This car surely could be in the top contenders had it been still in production.

Keep up the great work!
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Old 18th May 2010, 19:57   #67
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Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
I'm proud of my choice. 'Mein Schwarzer Hengst' (thats what i call my boy magnum)

The analasys would gives a fair picture to a new buyer but he must understand how the points are given to actually use it.

I agree that diesels cant be compare to petrols, but this analysis gives a cross comparions and it makes it clear on 3 different aspects. I like that. Good job there
A few miles on your black stallion and you will discover an oil burning motor that can put many a petrol to shame with its free revving nature. After all it is a DD. The gear shift too is a joy to use. Combine that with the all wheel independent suspension, reasonably good chassis and now the auto aircon =

I however am Ceduced.
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Old 18th May 2010, 19:59   #68
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
- You would expect the Honda City to be the most fuel efficient petrol car, but its actually the Verna petrol.
This makes me doubtful about the ARAI figures. Not only Verna, but some other Hyundai cars (i10, i20 ) top the ARAI list, but we all know what they give in reality.
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Old 18th May 2010, 20:21   #69
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Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
I'm proud of my choice. 'Mein Schwarzer Hengst' (thats what i call my boy magnum)
Sounds like the name of a book that Hitler wrote! What does it mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
Diesel boys, don't rejoice too fast. Coming up next. - Initial purchase price (on-road Mumbai prices)
And the final ranking after we consider the price would be the Bang for the Buck ranking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinayrathore View Post
This thread brings to fore my long buried thought of a replacement for my workhorse, the Accent Viva CRDi.
You mean you thought about selling the Viva CRdi, but then did not. But why? Verna Crdi seems like a natural upgrade - if you don't need airbags.

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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
The gear shift too is a joy to use. Combine that with the all wheel independent suspension, reasonably good chassis and now the auto aircon = I however am Ceduced.
The gearshift of the Optra has been criticized by many magazines. But I don't find anything wrong with it - have been changing Optra's cogs for little less than 6 years now. Wonder what the fuss is all about.

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Originally Posted by romeomidhun View Post
This makes me doubtful about the ARAI figures. Not only Verna, but some other Hyundai cars (i10, i20 ) top the ARAI list, but we all know what they give in reality.
You don't like ARAI numbers?

ACI got 9.2 kmpl in the city & 13.8 kmpl on the highway for the Verna Petrol. Meanwhile, they got 10.5 kmpl in the city & 16.5 kmpl on the highway for Honda City petrol.
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Old 18th May 2010, 20:37   #70
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Hi Smartcat

great info there, voted 5 star

is it possible to rank the cars in order of popularity ?
considering every buyer has one vote, the total volume shipped per model would give the popularity/preference of the Indian buyers.

Is such a data available ?

Last edited by StarVegabond : 18th May 2010 at 20:38.
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Old 18th May 2010, 21:14   #71
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A big big point to note, verna petrol is a topper in this run, while its one of the most ignored cars esp on TBHP, brings to light that popular demand rules high on most car manufacturers minds than what a select audience wants
Another point to note which has been ignore in this diesel vs petrol comparison
1. The servicing cost of CRDI is almost 4000+ per service, which is DOUBLE of a petrol service cost, does that not reduce the actual savings a user has?
2. There is NO extended warranty on Diesels beyond the 3rd year, so total cost incurred in case something goes bad in a diesel may shoot up, this is purely chance, but no 1 is sure to affect the total cost incurred by a user
It may also be useful to consider the normal servicing costs, which are higher for Ford, Honda than Hyundai and Maruti. Have not heard from anyone i know who owns an Ikon or Fiesta that the normal paid service is cheap. That has a big impact on the buyers decision, hence the image of Ford being expensive to maintain that still rules the market place!

You mention decent drive ability for the verna- most people just hate its ride!!!! V nice to hear this though, the drive is the same for a diesel and petrol in fact, i mean the handling and dynamics if thats what you meant!

Last edited by mkh : 18th May 2010 at 21:18.
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:05   #72
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Originally Posted by khoj View Post
A few miles on your black stallion and you will discover an oil burning motor that can put many a petrol to shame with its free revving nature. After all it is a DD. The gear shift too is a joy to use. Combine that with the all wheel independent suspension, reasonably good chassis and now the auto aircon =

I however am Ceduced.

The car has clocked 46K already and going strong. Its always got power on the tap as long as rpm is 2k+. Gives a lot of sedans of higher segments a run for their money. It is really VFM for its class (lets see what the initial price rating has to say). Unfortunately no ACC for me - nov'07


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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Sounds like the name of a book that Hitler wrote! What does it mean?

Its german for 'My BLACK STALLION'. Hitler wrote 'Mein Kampf' which means 'My Struggle/Battle'

beninblut means petrolhead (literal translation is petrol blooded)

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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
The gearshift of the Optra has been criticized by many magazines. But I don't find anything wrong with it - have been changing Optra's cogs for little less than 6 years now. Wonder what the fuss is all about.
I too dont find any problem on my magnums gearshift. I dont know if the GB on the petrol and diesel Optras is the same but I think the criticism is about the petrol Optras or may be the old Optras (pre Magnum era).
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:14   #73
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Smartcat great calculations..
I thought you would get tired after the hatchback comparo. But man your enthusiasm surely doesnt seem to die.
BTW, it would be of great help for me and sure for others if you would share the excel sheet with the data post all your analysis.
The issue is if I have to make some calculations of my own I am not in a position to do so. Hope you understand
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:22   #74
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You really are a smartcat.
Wonderful analysis and conclusions.

So seems like you already have rounded up the Optra replacement?
Not going for punto 1.6 ?

Just a quick question, did you consider all these parameters when you brought the Chevy Optra or that the clocking of 1 Lakh kms on the maroon one made you list out these parameters?
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Old 18th May 2010, 22:46   #75
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Smartcat a small correction to the ARAI numbers for FIAT Linea, for the 1.3 the declared fuel efficiency is now 19.9 as against 17.3. But then we need to check whether this change is there with other cars also or not with the new BS IV standards.
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