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Old 19th May 2010, 14:07   #91
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Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
@Vik0728 , But the issue is when I look at the rankings table as of now Ford Ikon seems to a better car overall than Honda City . Or probably the more expensive Optra seems to be VFM than a Linea or for that matter a Marina petrol ranked better than Cedia petrol.
But as informed buyer we know that above situations are not true.

But Smartcat's efforts are no less than stellar. Please keep up the good work.
Smartcat has at least three more rounds to go which include Safety and Features. The Ikon and the Marina will fare poorly on these parameters so there is plenty of opportunity for the Honda City to catch up. As of now, the study indicates that if you want the max bang for the buck in terms of performance and driveability without caring too much for features, the Ikon TDCi is indeed much better than the Honda City and its elder brother the Fiesta.

Last edited by Gilead : 19th May 2010 at 14:10.
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Old 19th May 2010, 14:09   #92
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Very good work there smartcat. Points for the features and equipment list for each of these cars also makes sense since the cost is close to a million bucks.

A few cars standing at higher ranking might come down a bit
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Old 19th May 2010, 14:36   #93
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@Gilead . I understand more rankings are yet to come and I am waiting eagerly for them too. All that I am asking for is a fair comparison at each stage. So that whichever car ranks higher in the charts , ranks high in all stages of comparisons. Here I see a sort of averaging out effect. To illustrate my point let us say take example of two compare point say A and B . Car 1 gets 5 points for A and 5 points for B totalling 10 and Car 2 has 9 points for A and 1 point for B . Now from a consumer perspective Car 1 is a better since it's score in all compare points is balanced , while Car 2 fares good in A and pathetically in B. But ranking wise these two cars are ranked equal.
Hopefully I have managed to confuse you
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Old 19th May 2010, 14:52   #94
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Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
Now from a consumer perspective Car 1 is a better since it's score in all compare points is balanced , while Car 2 fares good in A and pathetically in B. But ranking wise these two cars are ranked equal.
Hopefully I have managed to confuse you
You are now getting into qualitative areas like customer preferences but this happens to be a quantitative analysis. Who are we to decide that car 1 is better because it has a scored a 'balanced' 5 and and 5. For all we know, Car 2 may be better if it had scored 9 in an area that's highly important to that customer and 1 in a not so important area.

I happen to agree with that PHD Doc's method outlined earlier, but KISS is the mantra here and that's not too bad either.
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Old 19th May 2010, 15:33   #95
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Thanks, that will be great. I will try to do something with the sheet.

Great suggestion, but basically you are asking me to stop being lazy and do some real work Now that is not easy :-) But certainly I will try my best as and when I get time.
Yipiee now we will have two parallel options to look forward to.
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Old 19th May 2010, 15:47   #96
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
According to today's Economic Times article, 15% of all cars sold in Calender Year 2008 in India were diesels. The number in 2009 was 25%. The trend is definitely pointing towards diesels.

My head is asking me to take a long test drive of Manza 1.3 diesel. So I'm curious to know where it stands. But not to worry - I never listen to what my head says.
Smartcat, neat work till now,

Don't write off the Manza, I see it clearly finishing on top, considering the features (and space) it brings to the table, with it's price points, it should leave the Dzire behind.

A test drive might work out for you. I simply love the value the car brings to the table.

Today thanks to the Manza even the Linea which should normally lead in VFM rankings (especially compared to the city) seems to be far off in pricing.
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Old 19th May 2010, 15:52   #97
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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
No, cancellation is not a good property. For example, if a car has very bad score on performance, then what use is a very good score on safety (or vice versa)?
Yes, the goal of the car ranking is to find the best compromise between all the parameters mentioned - and that's why what you say makes sense.

But some have pointed in the small car thread that - many don't care much about safety (chauffeur driven cars) or performance (me, for example) or features (some people just want low price & running costs). Basically, many mentioned that the "Safety" rankings in the small car thread was unfairly harsh on non-airbag cars - and hence skewed the results in favour of cars equipped with airbags.

I expect your "normalization" ranking to be even harsher to cars with poor safety or performance or driveability

In my ranking table, lets say there is a car that scores poorly on performance but very well on other aspects (like Punto MJD for example). Poor performance is a deal breaker for a person who cannot compromise on that. And after looking at my ranking table, he could look at the next car in the ranking (Ford Figo or Vista) - which might score average rankings in all the parameters, but still get close to Punto.


Quote:
Well, it can be. Let us say we give 1 point each for having critical safety equipment such as airbags, ABS, rear disc brakes etc. Then all cars which have all of these will get 1 point on normalized scale, all cars which have none of these will get 0, and any car which has a few of these will get score in-between 0 and 1, depending on how many equipments it has.
aah OK! And when it comes to equipment, we can consider power windows, power steering, AC, central locking etc as "critical" equipment

Quote:
Unfortunately, yes :-)
hahaha!
(saving on smileys)

Quote:
By the way, Smartcat, please do not misunderstand me. I did not mean to criticize it in any way, but just wanted to share some thoughts on what we call "scope for further improvement".
Refer to FAQ on the first page of this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragstar View Post
The diesel engines now days (specially the verna) are very sturdy and need to be serviced every 10,000km's.
Fiat's engines have a 15,000 km service interval!

Quote:
Originally Posted by trrk View Post
With proper adjustment of seats and steering, I have managed to find a comfortable position where the absence of dead pedal does not bring about any discomfort.
I have discomfort (ankle pain) in cars without dead pedal if I drive continuously for 2 - 3 hours. Having you tried long highway drives in your Manza?

Quote:
Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
@smartcat: are you also gonna add points for features offered?
Quote:
Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
@smartcat . I think price wise ranking doesn't seem fair since the price depends on lot of factors..
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkrishnap View Post
Very good work there smartcat. Points for the features and equipment list for each of these cars also makes sense since the cost is close to a million bucks.
Of course - we will have a features & Safety equipment round. All the old generation cars will climb down the rankings to make way for more modern cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vik0728 View Post
Personally, I would go with Vikrantj's view on the comparison. May be these sedans should not be pitted against one another, atleast in the price department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vikrantj View Post
@Vik0728 , But the issue is when I look at the rankings table as of now Ford Ikon seems to a better car overall than Honda City .
Now the table wouldn't have looked so odd if I had first started off with price, then running cost, then driveability & then performance.

Right now, Marina petrol is above Cedia - it basically means, for the price, Tatas have fitted the Marina with a pretty decent engine. And hence is a good contender for top place among old gen petrol cars.

Meanwhile, Cedia comes with full black leather interiors, in-dash GPS navigation system with DVD playback, dual airbags, ABS, EBD, 195/60 R15 tyres, powerful brakes & alloys - while Marina doesn't. This bit of data is yet to be captured in the rankings table. Will happen in the next few rounds.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
As of now, the study indicates that if you want the max bang for the buck in terms of performance and driveability without caring too much for features, the Ikon TDCi is indeed much better than the Honda City and its elder brother the Fiesta.
Wah wah! I couldn't have said it better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACM View Post
Don't write off the Manza, I see it clearly finishing on top, considering the features (and space) it brings to the table, with it's price points, it should leave the Dzire behind.
Coming to subjective aspects, I wonder if something can be done about Manza's looks - snazzy black alloys on a black car perhaps? Not saying Manza looks ugly, but it looks a bit disproportionate from some angles.

Last edited by smartcat : 19th May 2010 at 15:58.
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Old 19th May 2010, 16:43   #98
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Excellent work Smartcat; rated 5 stars. I hope the data gets periodically updated for use in the years to come when I might be on the lookout for a Sedan. Thank you for the effort you have put in.

P.S. The same is true in case of your hatchback comparo thread too.
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Old 19th May 2010, 18:05   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat
I took a test drive of Punto MJD again. I realized that I have very large feet - and when I remove my feet from clutch to place it on the dead pedal, my wide feet touches the clutch pedal (almost depressing it a bit). Anybody else has this problem?
I don't have big feet, but yes, I also noticed this in the Punto. But then, I don't use the dead pedal on my car even on long highway drives, so this isn't a big deal for me.
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Old 19th May 2010, 22:32   #100
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One more thought, qualities like performance, drivability, safety etc come under "benefits" and mileage and (ownership less resale price) would give the costs. Believe all of us doing comparos would look at cost-benefit analysis.

Do see if thats how you want to look at it, else once you drop in the .xls, will have a go at it.
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Old 20th May 2010, 00:05   #101
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1) Excellent effort. Its takes a lot of time to club all the data, do some analysis and then post them.

2) About the FE figures, IMO, the ARAI figures need not be considered. They are too optimistic. The i10 1.2 is rated at 19.8 kmpl, which the car cannot deliver with even moderately spirited driving, either in city or on highway. Overall figures of FE from ACI is the most reliable data I have ever come across.

3) About on road price and points given accordingly to the price. This is unfair as the sedans belong to different segments.

4) Factors that are truly missed. Data on interior noise, data on headlight performance ( that can be included in safety ), data on handling. Data on interior noise was once provided by Auto India, data on headlight was give as good, etc. by ACI some time ago and that too for some issues only. Data on handling or grip was earlier provided in OD as g. This was good indication of the overall grip and handling. I really miss those data.

5) I dont know why, but it would be nice if we put in spare part prices as parameter in others section. The last spare part price comparison was done by ACI in March 2009 issue. A recent ACI spare part price list would be nice, but that is not in our hand.
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Old 20th May 2010, 01:25   #102
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aaggoswami & others, will respond to your thoughts later - it is way too late in the night!


Round No. 5 - PRACTICALITY


Here, we consider the following parameters to measure practicality -

- Turning radius (lower turning radius will make city driving a bit easier)
- Seat width (for transporting 5 passengers)
- Boot space (for those weeklong holidays)
- Headroom (for the tall boys)
- Max & min rear leg room (the second thing that a prospective customer will check after hopping into the car.



TURNING DIAMETER:


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BOOT SPACE:


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REAR LEGROOM:


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-legroom.jpg


HEADROOM & SEAT WIDTH:


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-headseat.jpg


Assigning equal weightage to all the above parameters, the ranking of most practical sedans under Rs. 12 Lacs would look like this -


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Comments:

- Tata & Honda has the "Practicality" round licked even among small cars.

- Honda City at 4.4 metres length is not the biggest sedan around, but is brilliantly packaged. It tops the practicality ranking among sedans, considering that the Marina is actually a stationwagon rather than a sedan.

- Marina's boot space 1350 litres, and that is no typo. Note that this is the boot space with the rear seats in place, and not folded down. I think my overhead sintex tank too has the same capacity!

- Fiat cars are known to have large turning radius.

- Indigo XL is a freak when it comes to rear legroom. Although Octavia is a 4.5 metre sedan, it has surprisingly poor rear legroom.

- Manza takes a huge leap over the Dzire in this round.

- Mahindra wasn't kidding when they said Logan is a "wide bodied sedan" - the seat width of 141 cm is Sonata territory.


Ranking of cars which offer the best compromise between price, running costs, performance, driveability & practicality - this is pretty much what an entry level sedan buyer is looking for.


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-total.jpg



Comments:

- Well, well, what do we have here? Marina 1.4 petrol - a truly underrated car. Decent running costs and performance/driveability. Remember it hits 100 kmph in 13 something seconds.

- Indigo CS diesel gets a bit closer to Ford Ikon diesel.

- Honda City leaves the Fiesta 1.6 far behind, leaving it to fight among other 1.5/1.6 litre petrol engine powered cars.

- If you are looking for an entry level petrol sedan (and if you don't want a Tata), Logan 1.6 petrol might be worth a good look. Other than FE, it does exceptionally well in the other parameters.








-

Last edited by smartcat : 20th May 2010 at 01:36.
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Old 20th May 2010, 03:04   #103
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Smartcat, great work (as always) with practicality data!

One suggestion: In practicality, the Ground Clearance (GC) should to be added. I guess the data for GC should be available in ACI as they usually have this information in all car reviews.

Of course, the question to debate would be whether more GC is better or less GC is better (some high speed drivers and sports car fans hate high GC). But since we are talking about practically and specifically on India roads, I guess obviously more GC should carry more points.

Thanks,
-AD
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Old 20th May 2010, 09:30   #104
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Brilliant..Kudos..Smashing..Aaasome!!

Smartcat please do PM me the day one of the Automobile manufacturer happens to show some interest in making you their Analyst!!
We all know that you have collated data from various magazines but man the effort that you have put in is nothing less than an Epic.

I just happened the see the time of this post and boy you really seem to be Smitten by this Analysis Bro. 1.30 AM !!
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Old 20th May 2010, 09:37   #105
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+1 to Dr. AD. while turning radius is considered aspracticality, GC could as well be considered here. May be smartcat is going to consider GC along with type of suspension and wheel size etc.
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