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Old 20th May 2010, 22:23   #121
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a well engineered car will not make the passengers uncomfortable during such acceleration. in case it does, it means only one thing the engineering is not good.
Hello StarVegabond,

Interesting point. can you please explain what should be "a well engineered car" that can tackle this situation ? Can you name some cars under this 12 lakhs list?

Thanks,
-SA
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Old 21st May 2010, 00:58   #122
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Originally Posted by SANairBlr View Post
I'm not a big fan of 0-100/30-80 tests. Because these are not done under practical travelling conditions.
Although I'm not a fan of the 0 - 100 kmph test, I do feel that 20 - 80 kmph in 3rd gear ranking makes some sense. Although, in the real world, you won't try to see which car gets to 80 kmph in the 3rd gear, a quick time shows how easy the car is to drive in the city. Cars in the top of the list - you don't need to change the gear in the city too often.

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I would give more weightage - in the order of priority to 1) safety 2) zero-defect, 3) handling, 4) driving ergonomics 5) ride quality, 6) travelling luxury & suspension, 7) mileage and 8) some other practicality related matters (such as for instance ground clearance)
I'm neither qualified nor experienced enough to rank cars based on (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6)

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Originally Posted by throttleking View Post
Smartcat how come you missed Optra Magnum Diesel?
I'm just calling it the "Optra 2.0 Diesel" rather than use confusing marketing names like Magnum, Beretta, Colt or Uzi.



Round No. 6 - SAFETY


In this round, we consider each car's active safety (braking distance, ABS, EBD) and passive safety (airbags, seatbelts) features, and rank them.

Braking Distance:


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Note that braking distances for all the Indigo variants were not available, but I have improvised a bit - by comparing the kerb weight of different Indigo variants. It's not perfect - but we simply cannot afford to exclude this important safety aspect, just because we don't have proper data for a few Indigo variants.

Safety Features:


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Assigning equal weightage to braking distance, seatbelts, airbags, ABS & EBD, the final safety rankings looks like this.


SAFETY RANKINGS:


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Comments:

- SX4 finally tops a round! And Octavia loses out a bit inspite of having the lowest 100 - 0 kmph braking distance - because it doesn't have EBD.

- Ford picks up a few lessons from Maruti - it equips the Fiesta 1.6 petrol with dual airbags, while Fiesta 1.4 diesel get nothing.

- Verna is the only modern saloon, not to be equipped with airbags. Verna diesel costs close to Rs. 10 Lacs.

- Generally, diesel versions of the same model have a higher braking distance because of excess weight. But Optra diesel has a lower braking distance than Optra petrol - because the former is equipped with rear disc brakes.

- While the Octavia stops in 38 metres, the Marina diesel goes a further 30 metres to stop from 100 kmph! Most Tatas have poor braking distance, but Manza does quite well.

- Chevrolet Aveo & Optra (petrol) equipped with only driver airbag. This has been noted and appropriately penalized in our points & ranking system.


Ranking of sedans under Rs. 12 Lacs that offer the best combination of performance, driveability, running costs, price, practicality & safety:


Sedans Under Rs. 12 Lacs - A Quantitative Ranking-total.jpg


Comments:

- Contest is hotting up. Around Rs. 11 - 12 Lacs range, Optra diesel takes on the Honda City & Cedia. Octavia petrol has been left out of the contest. Meanwhile, lower down the price range, the DZire (better braking characteristics) gets closer to the Manza.

- Among Rs. 10 Lac diesels, the Linea 1.3 diesel finally plays catch up with the Verna diesel, while the Fiesta diesel is emerging as a poor VFM car.

- SX4 jumps the queue. Remember that it is very nicely equipped car. And in the next round, we consider "Features/Equipment". It might redeem itself in the final round, and atleast get closer to Fiesta 1.6 petrol.
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Old 21st May 2010, 04:23   #123
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Can this be a sticky thread?
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Old 21st May 2010, 05:00   #124
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I am really at pain to see Fiat Linea 1.4 Petrol almost at the bottom of the table. It is such a nice car, but still can't climb up this table. It is the "performance" (and also drivability) rating that is pulling it so down; otherwise this is such a fine car. It is really an engineering tragedy that Fiat has managed to (under)power this beautiful (not just aesthetically, but also from chassis and dynamics point of view) car with such a weak engine. So sad!

And no, I am not blaming the rating system for this. Even my proposed normalized rating system will penalize this car heavily because it will score close to 0 on normalized scale for "performance" category and that is the end of it because the product (instead of addition as here) is killed when any one of the terms is close to 0.

By the way, smartcat, when you add features, can you please make sure to add "full trip computer" (with all My Car Stage II features) as a critical feature? This will help the beautiful Linea gain a small point or two :-) And thank you for not accepting my earlier proposal for including GC in practicality, because this would have pulled Linea even further down :-)

While the bottom position for Linea is sort of expected and understandable, I am more surprised by the lower-middle position for SX4. It is a fine car, and except for drivability, has decent scores. Only the drivability is pulling it down. When I test drove it (VVT version) a few times, I never felt the drivability was so bad. May be I don't understand drivability. If somehow one could ignore drivability, then this car climbs up many places in the table. Of course, I understand that you have not included quality of interiors, ride quality etc. in your point system, which would bring SX4 further down if included in the ratings.
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Old 21st May 2010, 08:18   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Comments:


- Ford picks up a few lessons from Maruti - it equips the Fiesta 1.6 petrol with dual airbags, while Fiesta 1.4 diesel get nothing.

Smartcat, this is not true. Fiesta 1.4 diesel now has dual Airbags in SXI version! It is same as Fiesta 1.6 SXI.
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...ey-begins.html (Ford Fiesta 1.4 TDCi - SXI Premium - Journey Begins)
- Verna is the only modern saloon, not to be equipped with airbags. Verna diesel costs close to Rs. 10 Lacs.

I believe cars are compared at their higher end, right? If so you need to change Fiesta diesels ranking.
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Old 21st May 2010, 08:32   #126
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Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
<snipped>
... rather than use confusing marketing names like Magnum, Beretta, Colt or Uzi.
</snipped>
. You a fan of guns also?

On a serious note, how do you rank cars that have exact same parameter value. I had noticed this situation somewhere in your small car thread.

This situation might be more prevalent for features, where multiple cars have exactly the same feature set. I feel that they should be grouped together at the higher rank and the equivalent number of ranks should be kept empty (exactly as the RANK function in excel works). (eg. two cars can be at 9th spot for a particular parameter, the next rank should be 11).

Now, this may be splitting hairs, but it helps to be precise.

Regards,
Prasad Redkar.
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Old 21st May 2010, 09:45   #127
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No wonder the city outsells all even with its higher price tag, strange to see ikon diesel much above fiesta diesel!!
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Old 21st May 2010, 09:54   #128
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Originally Posted by Dr.AD View Post
I am really at pain to see Fiat Linea 1.4 Petrol almost at the bottom of the table. It is such a nice car, but still can't climb up this table. It is the "performance" (and also drivability) rating that is pulling it so down; otherwise this is such a fine car. It is really an engineering tragedy that Fiat has managed to (under)power this beautiful (not just aesthetically, but also from chassis and dynamics point of view) car with such a weak engine. So sad!
I think FIAT understands this pretty well and thats why they are gunning for the Linea T-Jet. Hope that launched with a smart pricing will make other run for there money.
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Old 21st May 2010, 09:54   #129
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While I appreciate the time taken by you to collate all the data, what about interiors, pricing, equipments, refinement, looks, servicing costs, spare parts prices and service intervals? Without all this being taken into account the rating are quite frankly not up to the mark.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 21st May 2010 at 09:59.
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:10   #130
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Missed this thread. Very good collection of data. If someone can put besides this table the sales table and ranking for the same, it would be interesting.
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:13   #131
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There are some surprises and shocks in the analysis so far. Cars expeced to be down the table are right up and vice versa. Didnt expect Manza at the top.

Despite this, different buyers give differnt weights to various aspects. And, as a result, every thing sells. Brand value is one of the things that biases the customers and can heavily influence a choice, causing one to buy a not-the-best-in-its-class car for a higher price.

@smartcat: is brand image and A.S.S. coming too?
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:30   #132
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hey smartcat I have been a daily visitor to your thread ever since the days of 'Hatchback Shootout' !! Really applaud your efforts bro.

I don't know if its just me who feels this but I had couple questions
  • I had posted earlier on that an Octavia was an Obselete model and no longer available. I checked again with Skoda who confirmed the same. Since much of your review is "MUMBAI" based, does skoda still sell Octys there ?
  • The last time I checked (about a month back) Hyundai Verna had atleast 2 airbags. Not sure if this was the version that cost more than 12lks which I believe is impossible!!
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:32   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smartcat View Post
Round No. 6 - SAFETY


In this round, we consider each car's active safety (braking distance, ABS, EBD) and passive safety (airbags, seatbelts) features, and rank them.

Braking Distance:




Note that braking distances for all the Indigo variants were not available, but I have improvised a bit - by comparing the kerb weight of different Indigo variants. It's not perfect - but we simply cannot afford to exclude this important safety aspect, just because we don't have proper data for a few Indigo variants.

Safety Features:




Assigning equal weightage to braking distance, seatbelts, airbags, ABS & EBD, the final safety rankings looks like this.


SAFETY RANKINGS:


smartcat, smart work as usual. But, I am confused over one issue, Dezire equipped with 2 AIRBAGS, ABS & EBD has poorer stopping distance (56.6 M) as compared to Manza (with 2 AIRBAGS & ABS but no EBD) (stopping distance = 51.8 m).
Yet, Dezire outscored Manza on your points table (20 is to 17).

But, still the outcome of the whole exercise is surprising yet pleasing, & confirms the belief of the non enthusiasts & the actual sales, i.e. Honda City despite being overpriced is proving to be the VFM & Dezire & Manza are terrific VFM cars (refledcted by the sales numbers.

Hail smartcat
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:34   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benzinblut View Post
There are some surprises and shocks in the analysis so far. Cars expeced to be down the table are right up and vice versa. Didnt expect Manza at the top.

Despite this, different buyers give differnt weights to various aspects. And, as a result, every thing sells. Brand value is one of the things that biases the customers and can heavily influence a choice, causing one to buy a not-the-best-in-its-class car for a higher price.

@smartcat: is brand image and A.S.S. coming too?
I am not surprised that Manza is at the top. Objectively, there is not much wrong with Manza. Since this ranking looks at only quantitative terms, Manza will always score well.

Only when we bring in non-measurable quantities such as fit and finish, quality, reliability (well, in engineering terms reliability is measurable, but that is a separate topic), and handling that Manza starts to have question marks.

Brand image is a separate topic altogether and although that may be against Manza, I feel it should be simply ignored. Brand image does not actually make a car good or bad. On the other hand, the non-measurable quantities mentioned above actually make a car good or bad and hence they are very critical even though they can't be measured.
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Old 21st May 2010, 10:45   #135
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Hey smartcat - pretty nice thread... the Optra Magnum 2.0 LT TCDi retails for 10L OTR Bangalore, that's a cool 2 lakhs off the 12L sticker price, can you update the cost table please? It will give the Linea, ANHC & Cedia a run for its money!
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