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Old 18th April 2011, 13:30   #211
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

5+2 mini Xylos with 2 side facing seats in the rear with better pricing than the Xylo would be a great deal for both individuals and tourist travel guys. It offers a uique fexibility at potentially a superb price, the Echo, Venture and mini Xylo would in some ways be in a similar segment and I would pick the Mini Xylo over the venture if the primarly need was for a 5 seater with occational requirement of space for 2 kids when in 7 seater format.
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Old 18th April 2011, 13:41   #212
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by rohanjf View Post
If the spare wheel is fitted at the back, wouldn't it increase the "on paper" length of the car? AFAIK, it is mandatory for all passenger vehicles to provide a spare wheel, and not just a provision for it.
If M&M tries to keep the whole length (including the spare wheel) below 4 meters to get into lesser tax bracket (engine is less than 1500 cc anyway), we probably can expect a cramped backseat.
The 4000mm length restriction does not apply to the spare tyre. It is only till the end of the body/rear hatch. Mahindra are just wisely playing around with the rules here.
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Old 22nd April 2011, 23:01   #213
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

Spotted this Mini-Xylo test mule on NICE road - Bannergatta toll gate yesterday. Looked pretty decent and will create a new segmant for sure.
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Old 23rd April 2011, 02:10   #214
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Spotted this Mini-Xylo test mule on NICE road - Bannergatta toll gate yesterday. Looked pretty decent and will create a new segmant for sure.
How did the car look? did you see the front portion?
And did it have the rear mounted spare?
Was it camouflaged?
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Old 23rd April 2011, 09:10   #215
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

Guys, what happened to all of your sources?? When is the launch?
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Old 23rd April 2011, 09:28   #216
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by amrisharm View Post
A 4 cylinder 1500cc motor! thats great news! I have never been a fan of 3 cylinder engines due to their lack of low end grunt and vibration. Looks like mahindra is going to have another successful product on their hands once the mini xylo comes out.
You are right about the vibration part but not about the low end grunt.

Other factors being equal, for the same cc a 3 cylinder engine will have better low end torque than a 4 cylinder one.
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Old 23rd April 2011, 11:53   #217
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by badri View Post
You are right about the vibration part but not about the low end grunt.

Other factors being equal, for the same cc a 3 cylinder engine will have better low end torque than a 4 cylinder one.
Oh really? could u shed more light to this please? just a novice question, why is it that my current ride santro requires much much less accelerator input to get going in 1st gear from standstill than my friends alto k10? (apart from the 80 odd c.c's)

i was under the impression it was due to the 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder configuration, but it seems i am wrong. more info would be of great help buddy .
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Old 23rd April 2011, 18:48   #218
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by amrisharm View Post
Oh really? could u shed more light to this please? just a novice question, why is it that my current ride santro requires much much less accelerator input to get going in 1st gear from standstill than my friends alto k10? (apart from the 80 odd c.c's)

i was under the impression it was due to the 3 cylinder vs 4 cylinder configuration, but it seems i am wrong. more info would be of great help buddy .
As far as my understanding goes, torque is very dependent on the stroke of the engine. Other factors being equal a 3 cylinder engine needs to have longer stroke than a 4 cylinder one of similar capacity. This results in better low rpm torque but the engine can quickly run out of breath. The four can rev higher, produce more power and torque at the top end though.


I have a 3 cylinder diesel car ( Hyundai Accent CRDi). My favourite characteristic of the engine is the fantastic low end torque. There is abundant torque straight from 1500 rpm and it kind of gives a feeling that there's no turbo lag.

I did not drive an Alto so I can not comment on the same, but I have driven the Santro. It's got really good low end torque and there could be various design reasons to it apart from the number of cylinders and cc.
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Old 23rd April 2011, 19:52   #219
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by badri View Post
As far as my understanding goes, torque is very dependent on the stroke of the engine. Other factors being equal a 3 cylinder engine needs to have longer stroke than a 4 cylinder one of similar capacity. This results in better low rpm torque but the engine can quickly run out of breath. The four can rev higher, produce more power and torque at the top end though.


I have a 3 cylinder diesel car ( Hyundai Accent CRDi). My favourite characteristic of the engine is the fantastic low end torque. There is abundant torque straight from 1500 rpm and it kind of gives a feeling that there's no turbo lag.

I did not drive an Alto so I can not comment on the same, but I have driven the Santro. It's got really good low end torque and there could be various design reasons to it apart from the number of cylinders and cc.
I don't follow the logic here.

For similarly "squared" 3-cylinder vs. 4cylinder engines of similar displacement, stroke (as well as bore) will indeed be larger in the 3-cylinder - by about 10%. However why would the engines be similarly squared?

Also isn't the torque at a given rpm linked directly to power (power = torque * rpm) , so are you saying that a longer stroke increases the power at lower rpm for a 3-cyl engine?

In fact a simple calculation(torque is proportional to bore-squared via the force on the piston and to stroke length via the diameter of rotation of the crank shaft - thus it is proportional to displacement volume) shows that for similar displacement engine (assuming things like compression ratio, aspiration etc. remain same) 3cyl/4cyl should make no difference irrespective of the stroke (and since other things DO change usually for the worse, torque may actually reduce)
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Old 23rd April 2011, 20:47   #220
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

This is the picture of the facelifted Xylo that is available at SRK designs website. This is a regular xylo but I think the mini Xylo will be getting somewhat similiar front end treatment. Again, if that is so, this will be the most handsomome MUV in India, in my view.
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Old 23rd April 2011, 22:31   #221
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
However why would the engines be similarly squared?
Need not be. Only issue is that it may become too over square if the stroke is kept similar despite increasing the cylinder volume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vina View Post
I don't follow the logic here.
I find that this is an often discussed topic in many of the forums, often without a clear conclusion. Nevertheless, here is one discussion that throws some light.

A question about long-stroke or undersquare engines

Pls check Post #15 in the thread, I am quoting the following information from the post.

"There are a coupe of reasons why stroked engines produce more torque, they are in Heywoods book on engine fundamentals.

One reason is that force decays away far quicker in an oversquare engine. So although you get a higher peak force value acting down the cylinder axis, most of the force is going into bending the crank rather than turning it. You get a pressure 'spike' close to TDC that decays away quickly, in a long stroke engine you get a force that decays away slower as the valume change per degree of crank angle is less."


Coming back to the main topic, I feel that the new xylo is definitely a very interesting proposition if priced right. I will be looking forward for the launch announcement.

Last edited by badri : 23rd April 2011 at 22:32.
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Old 24th April 2011, 00:57   #222
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

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Originally Posted by Ashley Nair View Post
This is the picture of the facelifted Xylo that is available at SRK designs website. This is a regular xylo but I think the mini Xylo will be getting somewhat similiar front end treatment. Again, if that is so, this will be the most handsomome MUV in India, in my view.
Both of these are renderings, artist's impression of what the final vehicle might look like. The front end seems inspired from the recently launched Xylo pick-up. Have to agree, looks better than the current avatar.
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Old 24th April 2011, 09:09   #223
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

If the mini xylo looks anywhere close to those renderings, it will set the sales chart on fire. Looks really good and will create a real buzz in the MUV segment in the industry.
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Old 24th April 2011, 14:10   #224
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by badri View Post
Need not be. Only issue is that it may become too over square if the stroke is kept similar despite increasing the cylinder volume.



I find that this is an often discussed topic in many of the forums, often without a clear conclusion. Nevertheless, here is one discussion that throws some light.

A question about long-stroke or undersquare engines

Pls check Post #15 in the thread, I am quoting the following information from the post.

"There are a coupe of reasons why stroked engines produce more torque, they are in Heywoods book on engine fundamentals.

One reason is that force decays away far quicker in an oversquare engine. So although you get a higher peak force value acting down the cylinder axis, most of the force is going into bending the crank rather than turning it. You get a pressure 'spike' close to TDC that decays away quickly, in a long stroke engine you get a force that decays away slower as the valume change per degree of crank angle is less."


Coming back to the main topic, I feel that the new xylo is definitely a very interesting proposition if priced right. I will be looking forward for the launch announcement.

Thanks @badri this is very informative I'll go through it and write back.

Coming back to Xylo, if it had been released now I would have bought it. May be in a few years I will.
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Old 24th April 2011, 14:59   #225
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Default re: Mahindra Testing sub-4 meter XYLO. EDIT : Fresh PICS on Page 38

Quote:
Originally Posted by badri View Post
Need not be. Only issue is that it may become too over square if the stroke is kept similar despite increasing the cylinder volume.



I find that this is an often discussed topic in many of the forums, often without a clear conclusion. Nevertheless, here is one discussion that throws some light.

A question about long-stroke or undersquare engines

Pls check Post #15 in the thread, I am quoting the following information from the post.

"There are a coupe of reasons why stroked engines produce more torque, they are in Heywoods book on engine fundamentals.

One reason is that force decays away far quicker in an oversquare engine. So although you get a higher peak force value acting down the cylinder axis, most of the force is going into bending the crank rather than turning it. You get a pressure 'spike' close to TDC that decays away quickly, in a long stroke engine you get a force that decays away slower as the valume change per degree of crank angle is less."


Coming back to the main topic, I feel that the new xylo is definitely a very interesting proposition if priced right. I will be looking forward for the launch announcement.
@Badri

I did some maths and went through the whole thread. My maths indicated that the arguments was wrong, further in the thread someone else indicated the same (displacement/degree is the same irrespective of stroke so pressure with respect to angular displacement - and that's all that matters - will be same). Also peak-pressure will develop at the TDC position only if fuel-injection (spark plug firing) happens at that position - you usually ensure that's not how it works.

Next if you go to post #31, you'll find a quotation from Heywood's book (I don't yet have it - trying to find a copy on the internet) that says that other things (read displacement, compression ratio etc.) being equal oversquare/undersquare wouldn't matter.

In fact there is a gentleman on the thread (@mender - he posted post #31) who has experimental proof.


That said - coming back to what started it all - a 3cyl engine is usually made by removing one cylinder from a 4 cylinder engine. Some bore/stroke optimisation may happen but that is rare and will not effect power/torque anyway as long as displacement stays same (but displacement goes down roughly 25%, so both power and torque must suffer). For a 4-stroke cycle engine balance is obviously lost to a good extent when you go 3-cyl.

3-cyl is just a R&D expense saving method there is no other advantage to it (otherwise why would people have 4-cyl engines at all?)

mini-Xylo engine as a result is a tradeoff between optimisation and expenses.

That said, practicality wise and vitamin-M wise mini-xylo most likely still beats almost every other option in its likely price range. I booked a Figo yesterday, if the mini-Xylo were around I would have booked that.


Thanks for referring to the excellent thread - very technical and very enjoyable (and I'm now trying to get my hands on the book).

Last edited by vina : 24th April 2011 at 15:09.
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