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Old 5th June 2010, 19:36   #46
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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
So you are basically saying that Maruti owners are cheap (who value low cost of ownership), Tata owners are fat (who need that extra space) and Fiat owners are maniacs (who value high speed handling over anything else).
Why repeatedly pick on Maruti and FIAT? A Hyundai has the vices of either and the virtues of neither! I think the owners choose them for their Japanese / Italian engineering. I don't think one can be passionate about Korean engineering!

As for TATA, I think the owners choose it for the space and for the sturdy, economical diesel engine. And I think this thread is now meandering pointlessly!

Last edited by Gansan : 5th June 2010 at 19:42.
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Old 5th June 2010, 19:58   #47
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Well feels really good to know that even Tata owners talk about their car. Well ofcourse, their cars do have something that aint no copied from some one and thats distinct or a "core competency" as I would call.

What do Hyundai cars have to talk about. Whats one core competency, or whats one thing that makes a Hyundai distinct from other cars. Looks?, space?, features?, handling?, reliability?, performance?....I am not stating that Hyundai cars have none of these, they have a little of all these and as someone rightly mentioned "its jack of all trades".

I am myself a fan of Mitsubishi and own a Cedia. Mitsubishi needs no introduction for its motor sport records. Well, I very well have numerous reason to talk about my car.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
So basically, what I have noticed is that some people (including Team-BHP members) have an unnecessary and unexplainable passion towards their car brand. In some instances, these people are so blinded by their passion that they can't see obvious shortcomings in their car, and if someone else mentions the same, they call him/her a brand basher and get too offensive towards that person and too defensive towards their brand.

Its not about brand bashing, every petrolhead loves his/her cars. Every one knows about the shortcomings of their cars but its the good things about the car that offset the shortcomings. The thing is people in our country in your word "are more blinded by someone else's reviews that they cant see the obvious shortcomings of the car". So basically, its not them who decide which car to buy, its others who buy it and just by seeing the number of cars on the road, they believe that it is the best car and buy it.

However, a petrolhead just goes according to his/her desire.

The funniest comment I had when I bought a year old cedia for 5lac plus was from a guy who said "I would have bought a brand new accent" and actually started comparing the two cars. I just felt like .


I may be against the interior quality of Punto, but that doesnt make it a bad car, it would run circles around i10 and the soon to be lauched punto sport would eat up the i20 and again the soon to be lauched Linea T-jet would smoke the Verna. But all these things are not considered by an average buyer. The i10, i20 and the Verna would still sell better than the Fiats.

You cannot put a disclaimer against a car until you feel it. Although, I did consider i20 when I bought a Polo, one of the main reason I rejected i20 was because its a dull to drive car, an absolute commuter.

I know that when one buys a car, he/she is not just buying a product. The customer is starting a long term relationship with the brand. Hence, the overall experience really matters while buying a car - right from sales to after sales services. But some people take this relationship a bit too seriously, and take things as a personal offense when something is being said against their brand.

Ofcourse, brand means identity, do you expect Hyundai Gensis to outsell BMWs and Mercs. Its good that you dont take personal offence when something is being said against your brand because if people really start talking against Hyundai, there are endless things to talk about.


Quotes from Maruti owners (and my replies)

1. Maruti cars are cheapest to own.
My reply : These people are generally comparing a lower segment Maruti car to a higher segment car from other brands. I agree that Maruti cars are cheaper to own as compared to a similar car of other brand, but the difference is not as much as we are made to believe.

I am sure Verna will not be compared to Linea, SX4 or ANHC.


2. Maruti has the widest service network.
My reply : Do you really need to service the car that often ? Are modern cars so unreliable that we need to have service centres in every nook and corner ? Don't other brands have emergency helpline numbers too (for breakdowns/emergencies) ?

Certainly, modern cars are very reliable but end of the day it is a machinery. Incase of minor faliure, the car can be fixed at a nearest service staion rather than being towed. Eventhough, this is not an absolute necessity, it definitely is an advantage over others.

3. Just buy a Maruti with your eyes closed, you can't go wrong with a Maruti car.

My reply : I won't spend my hard earned money with my eyes closed. God has given me eyes, using which I can see that Maruti cars have major flaws. When I purchased my car (Hyundai i10 1.1) in Jan 2009, I started my car search with Maruti cars. But with open eyes, I saw that at a similar price Maruti was offering a cramped and bootless A-Star or a 10 year old WagonR with a 50 year old gear stick.

Ya right, I would have bought the Lxi varient of swift instead of i10, or waited for beat or figo. I wont mind living without power windows, or no rpm meter, but atleast I have a car thats better in all other terms. And mind you i10 is more expensive than a-star and wagonR.


4. Maruti cars have great resale value.
My reply : Do you buy cars for driving or selling ? If I don't intend to sell the car for the next 7-8 years, this is a non-issue for me.

The best example to this is Swift again, a car that drives well and when you go to sell it it will fetch you enough money to pay downpayment for your next upgrade.. what say.. not bad ehhh..

Resale certainly is not an issue if one is to keep the car for more than 5 years but any thing less than that, resale does play an important role.

Quotes from Fiat owners (and my replies)

1. My car has a soul, it speaks to me when I drive it.
My reply : I have no idea what you're talking about.

Thats because you drive a hyundai. do test drive cars from the makers of Ferrari or from the numerous times car rally winner (Mitsubishi), you will want to throw your car into a ditch.

2. My car handles so well that I don't care about anything else.
My reply : I don't care how well the car handles, but I ain't buying it if the door handles come off within 2 months. (pun intended)

I recenly drive a santro with power steering, I had hell of a time manoeuvring the car over 100.

"WHATS POWER WITHOUT CONTROL?"

or do you want to state that Hyundai make powerless cars so it doesnt need to handle good. Mitsubishis, Fords, Fiats all have excellent handling, which car's handle according to you will come off first.

3. Fiat A.S.S. is improving, expect it to be much better very soon.
My reply : Pigs are learning to fly, expect them to fly very soon.

Such a statement from atleast a copycat owner is not acceptable.

IMHO, this is not a good trend. Brands will never improve their products and services unless we, the passionate customers demand more from them rather than being satisfied with whatever is being thrown at us.

Products from Hyundai's portfolio seems to be thrown at unaware customers. We choose our products ourselves!

I have not quoted any statements from Hyundai customers because I fail to recollect such passionate comments from any Hyundai customer.

You have yourself answered your questions. No car in Hyundai's stable deserve any passion.

What I have noticed is that most Hyundai customers speak facts rather than make passionate comments about their brand. This is purely my personal opinion, I may be wrong here.

They speak nothing, they just buy a car, keep it for 4-5 years and sell it, buy another car, keep it and sell it.. it goes on and on. After all, what else is expected of commuters.

(I intend to start another thread for this purpose where Fiat owners can explain to us lesser mortals what is meant by cars with souls)

the proof of the car is in driving. why take trouble to start another Fiat bashing thread, better go and take a test drive, they are available for FREE

Last edited by Technocrat : 7th June 2010 at 19:59. Reason: Only 2 smilies per post allowed, thanks
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Old 5th June 2010, 20:06   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock 'n' rollz View Post
So do you accept that Hyundai cars e.g. Santro, i10, Getz, i20 (since only hatchbacks are in question) have...
1. Light steering with poor feedback
2. Ride in all these cars is bumpy
3. They are not as good handlers as say Figo, Palio, Punto

I think every buyer has own specific requirements. Not all of them start the buying process by keeping a brand in mind. If that was the case we wouldn't have had so many threads in "What Car" section.
Yes I do agree with the above mentioned flaws in Hyundai cars, there is no shame in admitting it. (Also adding from my side - beige dashboard reflection in i10 and weak AC in i20)

When I purchased my car last year, I was a learner and was not in a position to judge cars based on short TDs. So I turned to Team-BHP and went through ownership reviews and "what car" threads.

Thanks to many level-headed Hyundai owners, who accept flaws in their cars, I came to know about these flaws before making my purchase. I went ahead and purchased the flawed i10, being fully aware what I was getting into.

Hence I have no regrets that it doesn't handle superbly and doesn't give steering feedback like Fiats and Fords. It still solves my purpose of commuting within city with occasional highway trips.

But what I have noticed is that some Maruti, Tata and Fiat owners are not that comfortable accepting flaws in their brand products and services. When a flaw is mentioned, they go in complete denial or get too aggressive because of their excessive passion.

Such a situation is not favourable for a newbie, who might be making a car purchase based on opinions and feedback from existing owners. If he is not made aware of flaws in the car he is going to purchase, he might regret his purchase later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gansan View Post
Why pick on Maruti and FIAT? A Hyundai has the vices of either and the virtues of neither! I think the owners choose them for their Japanese / Italian engineering. I don't think one can be passionate about Korean engineering!

As for TATA, I think the owners choose it for the space and for the sturdy, economical diesel engine. And I think this thread is now meandering pointlessly!
I was hoping for other members to share similar experiences and keep the thread interesting. But that is not happening.

Can't keep the thread alive all alone, I am not that good a writer.

Rohan
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Old 5th June 2010, 21:14   #49
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Rohan, fanboys are here to stay.
It's a Zen Buddhism thing. Come to terms with it.
It's not logic that makes the world go round!
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Old 5th June 2010, 21:49   #50
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Rohan, if only you hadn't started talking about Hyundai, Tata, Maruti and Fiat this might have been a sensible discussion.

Your point is a good one: Why are car owners in general, and I've no particular brand in mind when I ask this, so unwilling to accept flaws in their cars? Why is it that many of us find it hard to admit that the car we bought is not perfect?

Unfortunately, I doubt if this discussion will ever proceed along those lines thanks to the "Hyundai vs the rest" debate that it has become. I hope it starts heading in the right direction or else its obvious that this thread is on its way to getting locked.

Last edited by McLaren Rulez : 5th June 2010 at 21:50.
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Old 5th June 2010, 22:16   #51
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Not all thinks that way. Most people including me base their reasoning upon previous experiences with a particular brand.
Like I have had very bad experience owning a Mahindra and Tempo (now Force), Indica and leyland. and i have a very good experience owning a Maruti, TATA trucks and a Classic Landrover.

Last edited by SirAlec : 5th June 2010 at 22:17.
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Old 5th June 2010, 22:43   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rohan_iitr
EPS vs HPS is an endless debate, and its a personal opinion whether one likes a light steering or a steering with feedback.
I agree. I drive a HPS-Baleno and an EPS-Swift. I like the Baleno's feel, but at the same time do not find the Swift to be light-steeringed or dangerous. But others who vouch by HPS, may differ in their opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohan_iitr
In fact, I may never develop that kind of passion towards my car because I no car enthusiast. A car is just a means of transport for me.
Well, if you were not an enthusiast, you won't be here on the forum. At the max, you would have posted a "What car?" query, got your answer and be gone. If you stayed back and are here posting threads, you are an enthusiast - degree of enthusiasm might differ though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohan_iitr
I think I am one of those 1% you mentioned
You are optimistic, I have to give you that. When I say 1% of tbhp, it obviously means a selected few. I anyway am not in that list - I am an unabashed Suzuki fan and I have no issues saying that because my admiration comes from having used/driven their cars for 23 of the 25 years that they have been in India.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rohan_iitr
I was hoping for other members to share similar experiences and keep the thread interesting. But that is not happening.
Sure, we will as long as you dont make it Hyundai vs Others.

Someone mentioned electronic appliances earlier on in the thread. For some reason, I always buy Samsung (Korean) when it comes to TV/LCD-TV/Audio-equipment/Fridge/Washing-m/c etc, though I believe that Sony is better. But I feel that the premium charged by Sony over Samsung is high. An equivalent in car-world would be premium charged by Honda in India compared to Suzuki/Hyundai etc.

But when it comes to cars, I cannot/will-not buy Korean. It has to be Jap. And since I feel the Honda premium is not justified, I buy Suzuki.

As far as learning from experiences goes, a good example is Prathap, my friend of last 12 years. I know him from the time he commuted to work by bus and then moved to a Kinetic Honda. Then he got married and wanted to buy a car. He said Uno. Given how Fiat was 10 years ago, I told him it was not a good decision.

He agreed and said "OK, what about Santro?". I would have preferred him buying a Suzuki, but he was not enthu, so let him be. He bought a Santro, was initially happy and then at 35K kms, he is told that there is major engine work costing 35K or so.
Can you imagine a petrol car having major engine work at 35K kms ?
I am not bluffing - at that time, I created a thread for this on his behalf here as I was baffled. Search and you will find it.

Anyway, he sells off the Santro and then is looking at a diesel sedan. I suggest Fiesta which he can afford easily. But no, he wants the wide-body sedan aka Logan. I am dumbstruck. Here is someone who can easily afford the awesome Fiesta-D, but buys a Logan. Anyway, his money - I give in.

2-3 years later and many issues with his Logan, he wants to sell it off. He gets just about half what he paid. Anyway, he goes and gets himself a Ritz-P. Looks are not great, but he is all praise for the car, drivability and the no-problem factor.

I don't need his experience to never touch a H, but after hearing about a petrol car having engine-issues at 35K kms, do you think I will ever think of a Hyundai. No sir. They can keep their jack-of-all-trades.
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Old 5th June 2010, 22:46   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaurav_chopra04 View Post
What do Hyundai cars have to talk about. Whats one core competency, or whats one thing that makes a Hyundai distinct from other cars. Looks?, space?, features?, handling?, reliability?, performance?....I am not stating that Hyundai cars have none of these, they have a little of all these and as someone rightly mentioned "its jack of all trades".

I have not quoted any statements from Hyundai customers because I fail to recollect such passionate comments from any Hyundai customer.

You have yourself answered your questions. No car in Hyundai's stable deserve any passion.

What I have noticed is that most Hyundai customers speak facts rather than make passionate comments about their brand. This is purely my personal opinion, I may be wrong here.

They speak nothing, they just buy a car, keep it for 4-5 years and sell it, buy another car, keep it and sell it.. it goes on and on. After all, what else is expected of commuters.
Hello, I believe that I'm the someone in question here

Just to clarify, I never said Hyundai Cars (or for that matter an i10) are "Jacks of all trade" I just said that a Jack of all trades - be it a human or a car does'nt inspire passion

I would also like to re-iterate that I bought an i10 for a couple of specific strong points, and it has outlived my expectations brilliantly .... and at the risk of getting boo-ed down by this crowd who seems to think of Hyundai's as dull or lacklustre cars not worth being passionate about - I'm a passionate owner of a Hyundai i10 - love it because - well just because I do

Last edited by adisag : 5th June 2010 at 22:47.
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Old 5th June 2010, 22:46   #54
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What a meaningless thread! The thread starter accuses every one of unnecessary and unexplainable passion for car brands while he himself possesses unnecessary and unexplainable passion for Hyundai cars. So according to him, while he has every right to indulge in this passion, others do not have.
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Old 5th June 2010, 23:01   #55
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Originally Posted by indian21r View Post
+1 decite

material attachment is an inherent behavior in humans. For example

when I was a kid , among my friends only I had Hero cycle while others had atlas, hercules. But I became a hero supporter blindly without even knowing what I was supporting

Later on when I got my first bike a bajaj, I started saying it was the best brand. no idea why? And now I have a Bullet. I am willing to live with all the niggles and will promote the brand.

As I type this it occurs to me that which ever product I own, I support it always. I talk about the best traits in it. Cars, computers, laptops, cellphones, cycles etc... I do talk about the weakness but will suggest the product in majority of the scenarios
This will probably be the case with majority of the people
VERY TRUE !!!!

I love cars
I d like to drive a BMW M5 or a Jaguar XK.
I made a choice about the car i should drive. I test drove it, liked it, knew people who used it. I m driving it.
I TDed other brands but settled for it.

The brand had an influence on my selection of a particular model. I am not saying that it is the best car ever. But I m bonded to my car, not the brand. There are models made by the same company which i donot like.

There is a saying in Malayalam about the 'owner turned fan-boy egoistic attitude'. " The rabbit i caught has three horns !! ". Let me be frank, my rabbit is the same as the other 1.5 lac rabbits...

Last edited by sandygordon : 5th June 2010 at 23:05.
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Old 5th June 2010, 23:11   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adisag
and at the risk of getting boo-ed down by this crowd who seems to think of Hyundai's as dull or lacklustre cars not worth being passionate about - I'm a passionate owner of a Hyundai i10 - love it because - well just because I do
Well, there is nothing to be boo-ed down in this. You love your car and are passionate about it, which is what most of us are also doing. Doesnt matter if it is an i10 or M800 or Merc.

I was (and still am, though we sold it) passionate about our SS80 which cost just 60K new (1/7th of your i10), but I don't feel that passion for the '99 M800 that we bought for 4 times more. The car should be worthy of the passion.
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Old 5th June 2010, 23:11   #57
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I don't have anything to write within the topic of this thread. This thread adds no value except increasing the numbers seen below the Avatars.


Last edited by clevermax : 5th June 2010 at 23:13.
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Old 6th June 2010, 01:26   #58
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Oh man, H vs rest. I am not a big fan of Korean cars. But used few Korean cars in the past and my present car is Korean one with an american badge.

Korean cars I used:
Hyndai Sonata - Good
Hyundai Santa Fe - Loved it
KIA Rondo - my god pathetic!

I had a plan to buy Astar, but rejected it after the TD. Also tested Estilo, Swift, i10 etc and finally decided to buy Spark because of the built quality, 3 year maint package, Additional discount etc. None of the cars I test drove was close to it for the price Spark was offered. So went for it! Plus, to drive in Bangalore city I found Spark is more than enough!!

Ony H brand car I like in India is i20

I am a big fan of Tata - Once they get their things right (+ money) I am planning to buy a new gen Safari/Aria :-)

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Old 6th June 2010, 08:42   #59
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Originally Posted by pgsagar View Post
What a meaningless thread! The thread starter accuses every one of unnecessary and unexplainable passion for car brands while he himself possesses unnecessary and unexplainable passion for Hyundai cars. So according to him, while he has every right to indulge in this passion, others do not have.
Quote:
Originally Posted by clevermax View Post
I don't have anything to write within the topic of this thread. This thread adds no value except increasing the numbers seen below the Avatars.
Sorry to have wasted your time, but nobody forced you to read all 4 pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McLaren Rulez View Post
Rohan, if only you hadn't started talking about Hyundai, Tata, Maruti and Fiat this might have been a sensible discussion.

Your point is a good one: Why are car owners in general, and I've no particular brand in mind when I ask this, so unwilling to accept flaws in their cars? Why is it that many of us find it hard to admit that the car we bought is not perfect?

Unfortunately, I doubt if this discussion will ever proceed along those lines thanks to the "Hyundai vs the rest" debate that it has become. I hope it starts heading in the right direction or else its obvious that this thread is on its way to getting locked.
I never intended this to be a Hyundai vs the rest debate. Its just that people started attacking me (since I had mentioned that I am a Hyundai owner), so I was just trying to defend myself (not the Hyundai brand).

I still hope that other member share their similar experiences so that this thread doesn't become pointless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Well, if you were not an enthusiast, you won't be here on the forum. At the max, you would have posted a "What car?" query, got your answer and be gone. If you stayed back and are here posting threads, you are an enthusiast - degree of enthusiasm might differ though.

You are optimistic, I have to give you that. When I say 1% of tbhp, it obviously means a selected few. I anyway am not in that list - I am an unabashed Suzuki fan and I have no issues saying that because my admiration comes from having used/driven their cars for 23 of the 25 years that they have been in India.
Like I mentioned, I am no car enthusiast. But I like to learn new things. Cars are new to me and Team-BHP is full of knowledge on cars. That is what keeps me here, not my passion for cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
As far as learning from experiences goes, a good example is Prathap, my friend of last 12 years. I know him from the time he commuted to work by bus and then moved to a Kinetic Honda. Then he got married and wanted to buy a car. He said Uno. Given how Fiat was 10 years ago, I told him it was not a good decision.

He agreed and said "OK, what about Santro?". I would have preferred him buying a Suzuki, but he was not enthu, so let him be. He bought a Santro, was initially happy and then at 35K kms, he is told that there is major engine work costing 35K or so.

Can you imagine a petrol car having major engine work at 35K kms ?
I am not bluffing - at that time, I created a thread for this on his behalf here as I was baffled. Search and you will find it.

I don't need his experience to never touch a H, but after hearing about a petrol car having engine-issues at 35K kms, do you think I will ever think of a Hyundai. No sir. They can keep their jack-of-all-trades.
I feel bad for your friend. I would definitely go through the thread you mentioned.

But don't you think that this might be a one-off case. If Hyundai engines were really that bad, there won't be so many Santro's and i10's running on the roads. Hyundai has been selling cars in India for more than 10 years now. The sales figures speak for themselves, it can't be a fluke.

There is no doubting the fact that the Japanese make better engines than the Koreans, but even Korean engines don't start showing age at 35K kms.

Speaking of Jap reliability, you might be aware that several Swift owners (including some Team-BHP mods) have reported clutch failure at less than 10K kms. There is a thread dedicated to this issue. Do you feel that clutch failure at less than 10K kms is acceptable ? Does this reflect Japanese reliability ? And this is not just a one-off case. This has been reported by many members on the forum.

Still I have never read a single post in "What car" section where any Swift owner would have written - Swift is a good car, but clutch quality is doubtful. Whereas Hyundai owners give honest opinions to newbies - i10 is a good city car, but rear seat ride is bumpy.

I agree that Honda and Toyota are marvels of Japanese reliability. But to compare our desi Maruti with these brands is not correct. Maruti is no Japanese brand and Maruti products are not of Honda/Toyota quality.

Rohan

Last edited by rohan_iitr : 6th June 2010 at 08:45.
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Old 6th June 2010, 10:36   #60
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Originally Posted by rohan_iitr View Post
Sorry to have wasted your time, but nobody forced you to read all 4 pages.
and what made you think that I read the 4 pages? I had better things to do, I only read the first post and that was enough for me to decide that I don't have to read the rest.
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