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Old 27th October 2005, 16:00   #16
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Hey AMR, I'm not in love with the NHC (far from it!) nor do I hate the Baleno (I would personally buy it over the NHC for lack of a better choice!).

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But then in the last 10 years, how much more has the 'new' B & C segment cars offered in terms of technology that translates into tangible value for customers ? Not much I guess, otherwise Maruti's would not have been selling at all ...
shuvc, look at the generations of the Alto being sold here. You mean to say there is no tangible difference between the M800 and the Swift? There is no tangible diffence between teh OHC and the NHC? The same goes for almost all other vehicle's. They get better and safer with each new model.

Yes the baleno/Esteem are adequate vehicles that do the job most of us ask of it. But unless you give the public something better, they're not going to know any better (remember the pre Maruti days)!

And if you think I have something against Maruti, I'll take another example. Skoda. Yes the current Octavia is a fine car, but on hearing news that they plan to continue making this model (A4) AND sell the new model (A5) alongside but at a higher price, that just put me off, because i don't want them to go down the Maruti route.

I just want the manufacturers to treat us like they do the rest of the world.

Last edited by Rtech : 27th October 2005 at 16:01.
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Old 27th October 2005, 16:26   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
shuvc, look at the generations of the Alto being sold here. You mean to say there is no tangible difference between the M800 and the Swift? There is no tangible diffence between teh OHC and the NHC? The same goes for almost all other vehicle's. They get better and safer with each new model.

I just want the manufacturers to treat us like they do the rest of the world.
The NHC is different from the OHC. No doubt.
What I meant was how much more does a current model car offer fundamentally (not considering looks and fancy features) compared to the Baleno which is 10 years old, at that price point ? They offer more no doubt , but is the gap as big as a 10 year gap should be ?

It still has a engine that can compete with the new cars in efficiency reliability and performance, it still competes equally in ride comfort and driveablility. My Q revolves around whether the new cars provide significant (10 years worth) improvements in these areas ? If not, then I would say it is to the Baleno's credit and is a discredit for the 'new' cars.

And then I also think Maruti basically decided to play the volumes game and catered to the largest segment in the industry. They neglected the C+ segment. They still do.

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Originally Posted by Rtech
I just want the manufacturers to treat us like they do the rest of the world.
I guess they are moving in that direction. Change should be a lot faster in the second half of the decade.
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Old 27th October 2005, 16:32   #18
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definetely agree with u RTech - auto manuf should respect India as a huge market and not dump thier redundant stuff here.

But, sticking to the topic - I still feel NHC is over priced for what it is.

Honda is commendable for offering the latest product. But that doesnt give them the right to charge a premium over it.

So i guess, Maruti or Honda or for the matter of fact - all manuf are doing a con job.
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Old 27th October 2005, 16:35   #19
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Originally Posted by Rishi
But, sticking to the topic - I still feel NHC is over priced for what it is.

Honda is commendable for offering the latest product. But that doesnt give them the right to charge a premium over it.
How much does the Honda cost in Thailand (in INR terms)?

Edit: 512,000 Baht for the base model (which comes with an Audio system, beige interiors etc) .. i.e. 5.65L INR which is around 1.2 L less than the ZX EXi.

http://www.honda.co.th/hct/english/w...ype=1&model=1#

Last edited by shuvc : 27th October 2005 at 16:48.
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Old 27th October 2005, 16:55   #20
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It still has a engine that can compete with the new cars in efficiency reliability and performance, it still competes equally in ride comfort and driveablility. My Q revolves around whether the new cars provide significant (10 years worth) improvements in these areas ? If not, then I would say it is to the Baleno's credit and is a discredit for the 'new' cars.
Not sure what you expect them to give you for you to consider it a significant improvement? Better passenger safety. Better pedestrian safety. better space utilisation. Better quality interiors and better fit and finish. CVT gearbox.

The only thing the Baleno has going for it is it's engine. Mind you, it's just 13 horsepower more. I wonder if this topic would even have come up if it weren't for that difference. However, lets take a look at their performance to see what the REAL difference is:

All figures from OD (as its the mag I have at my table right now!)
0-100 kmph
Baleno: 12.8 secs
NHC: 14 secs
Diff: 1.2 secs

1/4 Mile
Baleno: 20 secs
NHC: 19.1 secs
Diff: 0.9 secs

Top Speed
Baleno: 173 kmph
NHC: 171 kmph
Diff: 2 kmph

Hmmm...not that much is it?
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Old 27th October 2005, 16:59   #21
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The Honda Conjob was in watering down the engine, putting shine and wax on the body, stretching it longer (?) and opening the purse strings of the Indian Public. All car manufactuers need to treat India with respect and give us what we deserve, equal treatment. Afterall we're one of the fastest growing economies in the world and they have to stay here to keep making money. Ford has just launched in China and are reportedly offering the same Ikon and Fusion at lesser prices there !!!!!!!! Talk of equal treatment......... that's a load of bull****.

-- AMR

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Old 27th October 2005, 17:21   #22
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for all people complaining about cheaper cars abroad

do you know how crazy our duty structure is?

for all people complaining about having latest cars

have you every thought as what is the point of having new when we don't even have roads


for all people complaining about NHC being over priced

Its Honda logo which is worth that extra money
Besides rest of the nation is buying NHC over Baleno, Petra which means there must be something right in NHC which common man wants
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:28   #23
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If the sole car launched by Honda was the NHC, there wouldnt be so many complaints from enthusiasts. The main trouble with the car is that it had such a fine predecessor. There hasnt been, IMHO, a car in India which is as lusty as the OHC VTEC (for the price, ofcourse). There is no denying of the fact that the NHC is completely unHonda like performancewise. It also has a fairly old tech (8 valve, SOHC) engine. Lets not get started about the looks, though its all in the perception. The OHC looks fast, even when its at a standstill. Does the NHC ever look like it is just waiting to devour the expressway? Also, I would have liked some more safety kit for the price they are asking.
It all in the does boil down to the badge and the halo around it (no doubt the OHC had a great part in creating it.) . No one can blame Honda for charging a hefty premium for their product, if the people are willing to pay.
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:30   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rtech
Not sure what you expect them to give you for you to consider it a significant improvement? Better passenger safety. Better pedestrian safety. better space utilisation. Better quality interiors and better fit and finish. CVT gearbox.
These are the areas where the NHC is surely better.

(Lets leave the CVT out as OTR price difference would be more than 1.5 L. I did say that we should compare what we are getting at a certain price point. Even the NHC GXi with alloys added on would still cost 1L OTR more than the VXi.)

But then it costs more too. I mean if we are comparing a 7.8L OTR car with a 6.8L OTR car, then the 7.8L OTR car should also be compared with what one would get for 8.8L OTR. Then we should even bring the Optra 1.6 Royale, Elantra GT etc into the picture.

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Originally Posted by Rtech
The only thing the Baleno has going for it is it's engine.
....
Hmmm...not that much is it?
I wasn't refering to performance only although the engine is the heart of the car. A car with loads of features but a crap engine is no good.
Most average users would not go near those performance figures and for practical day to day use they may not matter much.
I was referring to aspects one would note/feel on a daily basis, efficiency reliability, performance, ride comfort, ac, driveablility, running costs, A/S/S etc.

Is the Baleno VXi that far behind in these areas to deserve to be trashed, just because it is 10 years old ?

Or is the ZX GXi that far ahead to command a 1.6+ L* premium on the price it charges in Thailand ?


* The Thailand Type A probably maps to the GXi out here. Which means its 5.65 L there compared to 7.3 here
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:30   #25
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Well letís look at the issue from a broader perspective. It takes huge pot loads of money to conceive a new car.
Even if the changes are just the body shapes. It requires lots of money.
Thatís why "new" maruthi zen and esteem retain their old shapes.
Now a new car requires new machines, new dies and new assembly lines.
Hence the cost involved in manufacturing a new car is much more than an older one.
That is the cost reduces as more and more units are made of the same model.
Hence it costs much less for maruthi to manufacture a 10 year old design, than for a newer design by Honda.
And there in lies the difference in prices.

If we go by this logic, the biggest con job is by HM, with its amby and Royal Enfield.

And it is wrong to compare prices with Thailand/China. The costs of processes involved changes from region to region, as also the demand.
For the record a Chinese worker is far more efficient in terms of quality and timelines that a comparative Indian worker for a given amount of manhours, as far as manufacturing is concerned.

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Old 27th October 2005, 17:38   #26
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Originally Posted by sajo
No one can blame Honda for charging a hefty premium for their product, if the people are willing to pay.
Absolutely .. There is a premium that you must pay for certain brands ..
I have no problems with the fact that Honda charges a premium for their brand. People want to be associated with the brand and hence pay the premium. But that does not mean that the product is light years ahead of others.

Are Louis Vuitton bags really that fab compared to lesser brands ? But they do charge a premium and people pay that extra amount for the name, over and above the cost that goes into creating the bag.
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:52   #27
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As much as I loved the OHC and hate the NHC, I think Honda's done a brilliant job of giving their target market what it wants.

Even now, I see so many OHCs being chauffeur driven with uncles and aunties in the back. Most City buyers want a practical car over a drag superstar. The NHC fits their bill spot on.

Anyways, I'm sure all will be forgiven once the Civic hits the roads...
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:53   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuvc
These are the areas where the NHC is surely better.

But then it costs more too. I mean if we are comparing a 7.8L OTR car with a 6.8L OTR car, then the 7.8L OTR car should also be compared with what one would get for 8.8L OTR. Then we should even bring the Optra 1.6 Royale, Elantra GT etc into the picture.
this is crazy
same way we can go upto increasing budget 1L at a time & finally compare RS with NHC/Baleno etc



Quote:
I was referring to aspects one would note/feel on a daily basis, efficiency reliability, performance, ride comfort, ac, driveablility, running costs, A/S/S etc.
all areas where NHC wins
besides ask any "common man" to choose betwenn Honda & Suzuki (same car segment)

Honda is one of the companies who set automobile trends
Suzuki is one of the many companies who follow the trend (globally)


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Is the Baleno VXi that far behind in these areas to deserve to be trashed, just because it is 10 years old ?
nope but its just that NHC is better
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Old 27th October 2005, 17:55   #29
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Is the Baleno VXi that far behind in these areas to deserve to be trashed, just because it is 10 years old ?
Nobody's trashing the car. Only questioning the company's business policy.

There can only ever be so many MAJOR changes that happen. You are arguing a mute point here really. There may have been cars in the 60's that had a better ride than their modern day counterparts (they surely had more room inside!), but that doesn't mean the manufacturers have been snoozing when it comes to new innovations. Its just that we've reached a point where most changes are subtle, maybe even not noticeable to the everyday user. They say the best technology is one that you don't notice when its incorporated into everyday life.

And that's the philosophy most car makers abide by. People on the whole are not open to sudden, dramatic changes. Look at the Bangled Beemers for example.

You can't expect them to come up with innovations that will change the face of motoring as we know it with each and every new model, and if they don't, question their need to upgrade an existing model!

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Now a new car requires new machines, new dies and new assembly lines.
Hence the cost involved in manufacturing a new car is much more than an older one.
That is the cost reduces as more and more units are made of the same model.
Hence it costs much less for maruthi to manufacture a 10 year old design, than for a newer design by Honda.
Even old machines and dies have a working llifespan and need to be replaced (unless it's M&M or Enfield we're talking about ). The cost of these would be the same as the cost of ones for a new model.

And I once again remind you that Honda is selling the NHC for less than the older, cheaper City sold for. Toyota dicontinued the best selling Qualis and replaced it with the Innova. Now if they can do it, I'm sure Maruti, who has more than half the market share, could do the same? It's not that they can't, its just that they have no incentive too as they want to milk as much out of their investment as possible. And, knowing the Indian public has only so many choices in a given price range, they can continue to do this gaurded by the high tax structure for imports.

The worst is if people such as you or me who are aware of auto scene accept this, what hope do we have for the rest of the public who think a "NEW" car is one that has clear headlights or beige interiors!!

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have you every thought as what is the point of having new when we don't even have roads
Imagine is the Govt. will turn around and say why bother with new roads if we don't have the cars to drive on them. We're not talking supercars here, just regular family sedans.

Last edited by Rtech : 27th October 2005 at 17:58.
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Old 27th October 2005, 18:03   #30
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Even though NHC is an allround car I always appreciated, I always felt that it is not VFM proposition. It is bit overpriced for those specs.
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