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Old 28th October 2005, 00:53   #46
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yes jimmy, the NHC does seem unjustified at this price, but then, in India...

and yes, the swift and baleno seem better in other criterias (which, in fact, they are) - but honda sells at perceived values, not actual costs; that "H" logo costs that extra monies, nothing else...
thanks mate, glad that you agree. Got a lot to thank you for the swift..( for ure first drive review of the swift and answering my PM's)..

Again it was coz of people here like Iceman,Samurai,Buffetfan, Vlp3r that i got the Baleno..(after serious thought viz a viz the NHC)..

Seems like i have a lot to thank team-bhp for both of my cars!

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So a decade old design with cheap plastics inside and an inflated butt, running on tyres so tiny they are a safety hazard. And you call that value for money? It would be if it were being sold at the price of an Esteem.
So it follows that Baleno will be VFM only when it retails down from the current exshowroom price of 5.8L to the esteemish levels i.e 4.7 L exshowroom. Where as the NHC( with it's 8 valves 77 bhp SOHC engine) retailing at close to 7L exshowroon is good VFM?

By the same token it seems that it's a henious crime to sell cars that have not gone a exterior/interior makeover. Does it always mean that a newly designed car always looks good.

Is the NHC a beauty to look at from the outside? IS the Innova or the santro good looking.. that just goes to show that all new designs are not the best.

IF you go by looks alone in the C segmant, then no one would look further than a Lancer. THe car reeks of class from the exterior and the interior. It did when it was launched years ago and it does now.

So what's wrong with the Baleno? IS it just bcoz it was designed years ago. THE vxi model retails with a 185/65 tubless tyres. I am sure the Lxi will follow suit soon. As for the interiors, there's nothing that spending a few bucks won't cure.

Talking of space, ride and comfort.

Wheelbase of the NHC - 2450 (mm)
Wheelbase of the Baleno - 2480 (mm)

As for the handling fit the Baleno with 14" wide rubber and see it metamorphise.

Ride - The rear seat ride of the Baleno is among the best in the class for C segmant. And that includes the Optra too.

Quote:
The only thing the Baleno has going for it is it's engine. Mind you, it's just 13 horsepower more. I wonder if this topic would even have come up if it weren't for that difference. However, lets take a look at their performance to see what the REAL difference is:
For most people the most important consideration before buying a car is the engine , performance and maintenance. An underpowered engine is something that you'll be hard pressed to correct.The Baleno as a 10 yr old product still has an engine that can put most of the modern cars to dust. It's the only car that can hold it's own against the OHC 1.5.

Figures apart, i'm sure driving both the cars(NHC and the Baleno) in succession anyone can know the performance difference; it's like night and day!

I still maintain that the Baleno is VFM at the current price levels. Maruti has recognized the shortcomings of having an old product and priced it accordingly. On top of that consider the cheap maintenace and service. Go to the dealer and check out the cost of the spares.. They are close to the Esteemish levels and cheaper than any other C segmant car by a fair margin.

Last edited by imjimmy : 28th October 2005 at 01:03.
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Old 28th October 2005, 01:37   #47
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Originally Posted by imjimmy
For most people the most important consideration before buying a car is the engine , performance and maintenance. An underpowered engine is something that you'll be hard pressed to correct.The Baleno as a 10 yr old product still has an engine that can put most of the modern cars to dust. It's the only car that can hold it's own against the OHC 1.5.
Small correction! Though Baleno has fantastic engine with near flat torque curve, it's splendid performance is largely due to its light weight (and partially due to skinny tyres?). Put that engine in other heavily built cars like Petra or Optra and it will expose its limitations. A similar case as Swift powered by Esteem's 1.3L engine. But then again OHC was a light car and so does lancer.
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Old 28th October 2005, 01:48   #48
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when Honda discontinued the old city it was a real blow to many people out there. the sales were strong and the car was still receiving rave reviews. The 1.5 gave good FE as well as performance. Now the NHC only gives FE.

But it was to happen. Toyota was entering with the corolla and hence Honda made way at exactly the same time. If you look at the product lineup of honda and toyota not one car is entering others territory. Hence I proclaim this as treachery. Lets hope it changes with the civic & fortuner.

toyota qualis(biggest toyota crime to bring in a >10 year old car)
toyota innova(qualis replacement too expensive)=no honda
toyota corolla= OHC vtec that departed before corollas launch
Toyota camry= accord is smaller and in a different price bracket
Toyota Prado= no honda car to compete in the segment
Honda crv= No toyota to comepete here.
NHC= no toyota competitor yet

as Shuvc mentioned somewhere about the bad behaviour of Honda dealers. Landmark Honda in AHmedabad was so rude with some potential customers the one guy acutally went ahead and went to Baroda to get his car. To talk about good customer service from Honda.

yes the NHC is a new car inside out but what does it gain against the OHC which also gave similar mileage figures and looked good in its own way??? a bit of space and new look???


I have been saying lancer is good based on personal satisfaction no doubt but both lancer and baleno are outdated. baleno prices have hit the ground and lancer is not selling well at the current price. But how is honda good when it cant even beat such old cars with new technology(the much renowned I-dsi)??? both the other cars give equivalent FE figures but leave the NHC standing when it comes to performance.

Yes suzuki has played the baleno trump to make wheels affordable to the common middle class man. Mistubishi has had some problems internationally and hence has not been able to launch a new car quickly but what's with honda not treating us equally as customers in other countries???

Shuvc showed the thai city costing at 5.65 which is much less but Honda charges a premium because it knows Indians will pay for it. Petra and Ikon and baleno are selling at rock bottom prices. Hyundai is bringing in the new accent within the same price bracket. Mitsubishi cedia is priced in the same range as thai model but honda charges a premium for no reason.


yeah what Honda has done brilliantly is hypnotize people with their mindblowing 19kmpl FE advertised everyday to the people half of whom dont even know the word torque. they have fooled their target market. Landmark Honda dealer told me that the NHC is actually faster than the OHC vtec ( Its true)


If Honda wants to do justice to the Indian people they should price the NHC in competition to the baleno(maybe 20k-40k more to justify its new car designs) and give added safety features like airbags and abs

some1 mentioned above that Indians ask mileage kya hai always and dont lookat other aspects. This is the reason why maruti sells so well(Maruti prices are the best among all so no comparision) but does that mean that Honda should forget its responsibility and give an inferior product in great new clothes?? On top of that a premium.Wow

I wont compare international pricing differences because of our policies(A camry in canada sells at close to corolla's prices.) BUt certainly Honda is not doing this due to limitations but to empty peoples pockets.
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Old 28th October 2005, 03:08   #49
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I have said this before and I say it again. The NHC would have been a super flop if it had the Chevrolet or Ford badge on it's grille. A flop even if it had the same reliablity, FE, service support etc. Anycase I have never heard of any reliablity issues with any car eg Optra doesn't have any problems. Indians would then have said that GM and Ford are fooling Indians by selling a car for over 7 lacs with just 77 bhp. If ford sold the city at 5 lacs it would still flop. Just because it has the H logo people willingly shell out their hard earned money for this piece of crap. Also, lately, I have been hearing a lot of horror stories about After Sales Service expereince. Honda sales was always arrogant and now the company cancells warranty after the rains and service is not too good either. Only God knows how Honda ranks so high on customer satisfaction.

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For most people the most important consideration before buying a car is the engine , performance and maintenance.
I don't agree. For most people the most important consideration before buying a car is Fuel Efficiency, Fuel efficiency and Low maintainance. I am sure most Corolla owners wouldn't know what engine size their car has or how much bhp it has. Ask them about mileage and they will give you the complete record from day one. This applies to all car owners across all segments. Most salespeople don't even bother to tell potential customers about the engine size or hp figures and I don't blame them. If the sales guy says this car has 95 bhp the immediate response would be "mileage kam hoga".

Last edited by amit : 28th October 2005 at 03:14.
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Old 28th October 2005, 03:34   #50
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mileage today doesnt really count on bhp . Nor does performance. NHC sucks on both counts.
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Old 28th October 2005, 06:52   #51
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Originally Posted by Gurkha
timing belt being stretched to dangerous limits, due to high cost of labor, yet he still has the HAANDA CITTY and the IJJAT, if you tell this very same person to buy a Trax, which is a far practical alternative for him at this stage, would carry his tub o lard wife bedecked in jewels in comfort, would outlast anything foreign or desi, he would cringe, DEHATI GAARI NAHIN CHALANA, IJJAT DA SAWAAL HAI.
Ha..ha....very true Gurkha. Good writeup. But in the case of the Indica, the junta has accepted the dehati gaadi even though it lacks the refinement of equally priced Jap cars.
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Old 28th October 2005, 07:25   #52
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>4. The 'new' 2010 Baleno will by then cost 4L, with beige
> interiors and 195/60 R14 Alloys, new grill and DVD player + screens
>5. Buy another 'new' Baleno. You lose only 2.5L over 5yrs !

He he...

I haven't understood the hype in this columns about the Baleno. I almost decided Baleno is the car for me, from numerous posts here... Took a test drive... And felt totally uncomfortable inside.

My measure of any car is, reasonable power, but comfortable sitting posture and ride. I am no race car driver... Besides, I felt Baleno engine isn't as refined as, say a Wagon-R!!! Power (and probably the price) is the only good thing we get with Baleno.

Since I didn't like the rear legroom of NHC, i am forced to settle for an Innova... Should get the delivery today.
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Old 28th October 2005, 07:35   #53
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Originally Posted by amit
Also, lately, I have been hearing a lot of horror stories about After Sales Service expereince. Honda sales was always arrogant and now the company cancells warranty after the rains and service is not too good either. Only God knows how Honda ranks so high on customer satisfaction.
Honda has been ranking high consistently for most surveys conducted. So the instances of bad customer treatments might be one off incidents.
As I said in an earlier post in this thread, The main trouble with the NHC is its fine predecessor. OHC had a major role to play in creating that perceived halo around that 'H' badge.
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Old 28th October 2005, 07:41   #54
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I have said this before and I say it again. The NHC would have been a super flop if it had the Chevrolet or Ford badge on it's grille. A flop even if it had the same reliablity, FE, service support etc. Anycase I have never heard of any reliablity issues with any car eg Optra doesn't have any problems. Indians would then have said that GM and Ford are fooling Indians by selling a car for over 7 lacs with just 77 bhp. If ford sold the city at 5 lacs it would still flop. Just because it has the H logo people willingly shell out their hard earned money for this piece of crap.
just in a same way if Honda starts selling Accord at the price of C class tomorrow no one will buy
its the brand value & I see nothing wrong with companies charging more for it

and just because it doesn't have performance doesn't mean its piece of crap
its a city car, & a very good indeed
besides people are willing to give that extra money because of what comes with that H (Honda) logo: refinment, quality, reliability & status


Quote:
Also, lately, I have been hearing a lot of horror stories about After Sales Service expereince. Honda sales was always arrogant and now the company cancells warranty after the rains and service is not too good either. Only God knows how Honda ranks so high on customer satisfaction.
give source
my experience with honda people is completely different
they are very friendly & helpful

Last edited by adya33 : 28th October 2005 at 07:44.
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Old 28th October 2005, 10:00   #55
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Originally Posted by devarshi84

yeah what Honda has done brilliantly is hypnotize people with their mindblowing 19kmpl FE advertised everyday to the people half of whom dont even know the word torque. they have fooled their target market. Landmark Honda dealer told me that the NHC is actually faster than the OHC vtec ( Its true)


If Honda wants to do justice to the Indian people they should price the NHC in competition to the baleno(maybe 20k-40k more to justify its new car designs) and give added safety features like airbags and abs .


I wont compare international pricing differences because of our policies(A camry in canada sells at close to corolla's prices.) BUt certainly Honda is not doing this due to limitations but to empty peoples pockets.
Devarshi,

Thank u very much for that post.............. you have hit the nail and that's the point I wanted to highlight when I started the thread "NHC a toothless tiger".

History is full of Brands that have been sold well, but intrinsic value was lacking......... they disappeared like tattered undergarments in the time-sandbox. Look at Corolla, its still the largest car sold, it has full value for money and the new one comes with more value for money. That's product life cycle extension for you.

Unless NHC uppgrades and starts looking into its product deeply someone is going to upstage them soon. Its time the japs spend some of the money earned from NHC to pay back to the Indian Public what they have stolen.

Baleno is full value for money, most of the money earned from it circulates in India and can anyone name one car G L O B A L L Y which has a value-proposition like this?

-- AMR

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Last edited by ramkya1 : 28th October 2005 at 10:09. Reason: Major Typho error
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Old 28th October 2005, 11:23   #56
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Whew, this is gonna be a long one!

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Originally Posted by imjimmy
So it follows that Baleno will be VFM only when it retails down from the current exshowroom price of 5.8L to the esteemish levels i.e 4.7 L exshowroom. Where as the NHC( with it's 8 valves 77 bhp SOHC engine) retailing at close to 7L exshowroon is good VFM?
No Jimmy, nowhere have I mentioned that the NHC is "value for money". All I said was that by other manufacturers pricing their old products that high, they leave a window open to the others to price their new models a bit higher. Its a game of chess. And they are not out to do any favours to the Indian public. The fact is that even at this price, Honda cannot cope with the demand. Now why on earth would they want to drop the price and get an even longer waiting list, which eventually leads to unhappy customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imjimmy
By the same token it seems that it's a henious crime to sell cars that have not gone a exterior/interior makeover. Does it always mean that a newly designed car always looks good.

Is the NHC a beauty to look at from the outside? IS the Innova or the santro good looking.. that just goes to show that all new designs are not the best.

IF you go by looks alone in the C segmant, then no one would look further than a Lancer. THe car reeks of class from the exterior and the interior. It did when it was launched years ago and it does now.
I find the previous 7 series a better looker than the Bangled one. Does that mean the current one is crap and BMW should keep selling the old one? Looks are a highly subjective topic, BUT the fact that the Santro and NHC still sell in such large number EVEN THOUGH they look wierd is testimony to their basic product itself.

A newly designed car may not always look better than the previous one, but its very rare that it would be worse off technically. Just look at the fabulous packaging of the NHC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imjimmy
So what's wrong with the Baleno? IS it just bcoz it was designed years ago. THE vxi model retails with a 185/65 tubless tyres. I am sure the Lxi will follow suit soon. As for the interiors, there's nothing that spending a few bucks won't cure.
You are now making excuses for a car. Understandable seeing that you drive one. But as I don't drive either, I can take a more unbiased overview of them.

If I spend Rs.6.5 lakhs on a car, I don't then want to spend more on wheels/tyres, sprucing up the interior (what can you do besides change the colour of the dashboard? ) just to bring it a bit more up-to-date. That's what the company should have offered in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imjimmy
For most people the most important consideration before buying a car is the engine , performance and maintenance. An underpowered engine is something that you'll be hard pressed to correct.The Baleno as a 10 yr old product still has an engine that can put most of the modern cars to dust. It's the only car that can hold it's own against the OHC 1.5.
It's obvious thats not true in the Indian market. As mentioned earlier by amit, there are other factors that matter more when it comes to buying a car. If it were the engine that mattered most, the Palio/Petra 1.6 would be topping the sales charts. Do you really thik a second here or there matters to 90% of the buying public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
when Honda discontinued the old city it was a real blow to many people out there. the sales were strong and the car was still receiving rave reviews. The 1.5 gave good FE as well as performance. Now the NHC only gives FE.
I agree. And the OHC has always been the NHC's strongest competitor (as strange as that may sound!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
as Shuvc mentioned somewhere about the bad behaviour of Honda dealers. Landmark Honda in AHmedabad was so rude with some potential customers the one guy acutally went ahead and went to Baroda to get his car. To talk about good customer service from Honda.
Taking the exceptions to the rule is not right. Honda has consistenly been at the top of JD Power rankings. There must be a reason for that. Plus, our own members - GTO, Shan2nu, ajmat and a few others have nothing but praise for their dealers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
Shuvc showed the thai city costing at 5.65 which is much less but Honda charges a premium because it knows Indians will pay for it.
How much of that "premium" could be attributed to Govt. imposed taxes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
Petra and Ikon and baleno are selling at rock bottom prices. Hyundai is bringing in the new accent within the same price bracket. Mitsubishi cedia is priced in the same range as thai model but honda charges a premium for no reason.
Petra price! Well, we all know the turmoil Fiat is in, so they could probably sell it at 3 laksh and still noone would buy it now. Ikon and Baleno have been on sale in this market for far longer than the NHC. What were their prices when they were launched? The Cedia is not on sale, so we don't know its on road price. Neither do we know the new accents price.

The only reason they can sell at these lower prices now is because they have been selling the same car for years now, so its simple economies of scale. If Ford were to think like Honda, they would discontinue the Ikon once the Fiesta is launched. But, all they do is lower the price of the Ikon to make place for the Fiesta. And we all sing praises of the new low price.

Granted the current sales figures of cars in India do not encourage quick model changes, but when a manufacturer does take the brave step of actually replacing one model year with its successor, we all jump on them! Maybe Honda should not have bothered and sold the OHC at the price of an Ikon and priced the NHC at 9 lakhs (or vice-versa). Apparently we are all used to this system of working!

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
If Honda wants to do justice to the Indian people they should price the NHC in competition to the baleno(maybe 20k-40k more to justify its new car designs) and give added safety features like airbags and abs
As mentioned above, they are not here to do charity. Their cars have 3 month waiting lists. Why on earth should they lower the price?

However I agree on the ABS & airbags issue. Its about time these become mandatory on all cars above Rs.6 lakhs. (atleast).

Quote:
Originally Posted by devarshi84
but does that mean that Honda should forget its responsibility and give an inferior product in great new clothes?? On top of that a premium.Wow
Besides being down on power and not quite the drivers car, the NHC is far superious to the OHC in every single aspect, including the price! What you seem to be saying is that you would have been happier is the OHC was given a price drop. Essentially you are telling the world to dump their outdated vehicles in India just because they may be prices Rs.50,000 less! Wow! Thats what you call limited vision and failing to look at the bigger picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sajo
The main trouble with the NHC is its fine predecessor. OHC had a major role to play in creating that perceived halo around that 'H' badge.
So true!

Quote:
Originally Posted by adya33
just in a same way if Honda starts selling Accord at the price of C class tomorrow no one will buy
its the brand value & I see nothing wrong with companies charging more for it
Totally agree.

Why do people by brands? Because the brand is supposed to be a sort of guarantee. It puts the users mind at ease in the thought that what he has bought will be reliable, functional, well made etc etc. A brand takes years to build and when a company wants to capitalise on its brand value after decades of effort to build that, can you blame it? How different are a pair of Levis to a pair of some unknown brand? How different is a Nike to a Power shoe? Why does a Swiss watch cost so much more than a Casio? They both tell time and would be equally reliable.

There will always be people who look beyond a brand and buy something else (Gurkha seems to fit that bill after reading his posts on the G wagon forum!), but majority of the public do not want to take the time and trouble to study each and every car in the market. They know that by buying a Honda, they are assured peace of mind, and that to them may be worth the extra money. Its taken Honda and Toyota decades to build up their brand, and now they are in a position to command a certain respect. They do run a business at the end of the day.

Quote:
Unless NHC uppgrades and starts looking into its product deeply someone is going to upstage them soon. Its time the japs spend some of the money earned from NHC to pay back to the Indian Public what they have stolen.
Quote:
Baleno is full value for money, most of the money earned from it circulates in India and can anyone name one car G L O B A L L Y which has a value-proposition like this?
Ok, now you've gone waaaaay off the actual topic of the cars themselves! AMR, you seem to have an axe to grind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msprabhakar
Baleno vs NHC will be an endless debate, as endless as Cong vs BJP!
Lol!
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Old 28th October 2005, 11:24   #57
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Once again a case of only looking at the spec sheet and missing the bigger picture
That says it all.

I ain't saying that the NHC has mind blowing performance but, even with 77 bhp (not 80), it still manages to hit 100 in 13.9 secs (The Ikon 1.6 with 90+ bhp takes 13.7). It hits 170 kmph (again in the league of all it's competitors). Is definately more fuel efficient and yet......sells more units per month.

If that ain't a winning combination....i dunno what else is.

Infact if you ask me, the Vtec version of the NHC is a let down bcoz, the chassis just doesn't have what the old Citys' were known for.

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Old 28th October 2005, 16:05   #58
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Originally Posted by ramkya1
Unless NHC uppgrades and starts looking into its product deeply someone is going to upstage them soon. Its time the japs spend some of the money earned from NHC to pay back to the Indian Public what they have stolen.



-- AMR

===================
What have they stolen ? No one has made a complaint. If anything is overpriced, no one buys - witness the Fusion, original baleno, Mondeo
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Old 28th October 2005, 16:50   #59
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Originally Posted by ajmat
What have they stolen ? No one has made a complaint. If anything is overpriced, no one buys - witness the Fusion, original baleno, Mondeo
Money & trust of the Badge. The complaints are in the form of Posts in this thread....... if you read them carefully you'll see not all are gung-ho about the NHC.

I am in love with Corolla and am a fan of old crown, carrera (?) etc. Honda taught the yankeeys and Detroit a thing or two about car manufacturing and marketing. I feel more let-down as I expect more from Honda, its this one product NHC..... I have a bee in my bonnet.

Just because something is selling in numbers, everything is not okey-dokey.

Yes, in a perfectly competitive market, an equilibrium is established in due course of time between demand, supply and price. In due course of time, I think we need to sit this one out.

-- AMR

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