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Old 10th June 2010, 09:35   #31
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Reliance and shell does not need subsidy. They just need a reasonable tax system and not 120% tax. If left on their own, they would sell petrol at Rs.26/- and Diesel at Rs.24/-. But the other PSU's will be up in arms.
And you say that India is running at a 6.1% deficit on GDP. I find it hard to believe. Are you saying that as a country, India is mismanaged? Our country has VIPs traveling first class all over the world, we have new roads and bridges being built, we have the richest cricket authority, we offer 2-5 Lakhs as ex-gratia to the next of kin to suicide victims and accident victims (instead of encouraging insurance).
We are one of the richest countries. Not on paper perhaps, but in reality. China is a poor man's country. They ride bicycles and have forums like sorebacks.com.
The whole discussion is a laugh. Truth is the govt. is traditional about cash cows.

Well for your information here is a link which does talk about the fact. Anyway request you to google more to find information on the Fiscal conditions for India.

And for people misinformed about China being a poor mans country. Here is the link which says China's Fiscal Revenue is 34% (Hope you understand the difference between Deficit and Revenue)

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They ride bicycles
Thanks for sharing the joke I really had a hearty laugh on seeing that statement.
Please do not stay in early 1990's cos thats when they discarded cycles and started buying Cars.

Today, forget about cities like Biejing and Shanghai, any visit to even Tier II cities of China you will notice there are more cars than anything. You will hardly find a cycle on the road.

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Old 10th June 2010, 09:55   #32
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@Xing - Well, to me Wild sounded little right, may be his words are little exaggerated. He's right on the points on
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Our country has VIPs traveling first class all over the world, we have new roads and bridges being built, we have the richest cricket authority, we offer 2-5 Lakhs as ex-gratia to the next of kin to suicide victims and accident victims (instead of encouraging insurance).
We are one of the richest countries. Not on paper perhaps, but in reality
To me it sounded like - the rich getting richer & the poor getting poorer which is a clear indication of this country being mismanaged and I think this is what he intended to say.

PS - @Wild, around 2-3 ago, I read about an article in Forbes about a journalist who visited both India & China (report on emerging markets) & one of the point was comparing Delhi & Beijing on the Airport & Railway station front. He'd wrote several things, but conveyed only one meaning that, India has a long way to catch up Beijing. Trust me, I felt very embarassed & those points left me to think.

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Old 10th June 2010, 10:22   #33
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@Xing - Well, to me Wild sounded little right, may be his words are little exaggerated. He's right on the points on
I too agree, but the point is fiscal deficit is different from GDP counts. Our GDP might be growing but the reality is that its happening at the cost of borrowed money or rather increased expenditure.
For e.g. fiscal deficit of 6 % means that we spend Rs 100 to earn a revuenue (i.e. GDP) of Rs 94.

Though the GDP might increase its not real increase, if we were a company we would have been ones of poor performers.
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Old 10th June 2010, 10:27   #34
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Can someone help me understand what the discussion is all about? I would prefer clear numbers on the prices and taxes etc.
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Old 10th June 2010, 10:27   #35
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Our GDP might be growing but the reality is that its happening at the cost of borrowed money or rather increased expenditure
That's the same case with US & UK. In US, they say as a joke that, if a cent is kept stacking over another, their debt piles up to Moon. In todays world, countries borrowing money from world bank is the norm.

Though this is little old, check out this statistics on external debt & see the position of US versus India - External > Debt statistics - countries compared - NationMaster
PS - We've a long way to catch up even there
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:10   #36
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Xingamazon, I was exagerating a wee bit. But my point was not to go by stastics which can and is twisted to mean anything.
China is a communist country. The individual means nothing there. As a country china is definitely in a stronger position financially.
On the other hand India is a land of individuals. We fleece the country to fill our pockets. here national stastics do not mean much. They are just numbers to be presented in public to earn pity and loans. But consider individuals and the true picture will emerge. Look around you and tell me if you see a difference. You're in chennai, they have these new machines to declog the drains. They started cleaning up the marina with sand filters from Japan 10 years ago. I've been travelling to Chennai for the past 30 years and believe me, the change is enormous. Inflation is on a high. All these are not signs of inadequate funds. Misappropriation of funds is the reason for the poor statistics.
And by the way, we're up there with the best of the best. (Not as a nation but as persons). We are too disunited and disharmonius to perform well in collective statistics.

Last edited by wildsdi5530 : 10th June 2010 at 12:11. Reason: Addition of para.
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Old 10th June 2010, 12:48   #37
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Xingamazon, I was exagerating a wee bit. But my point was not to go by stastics which can and is twisted to mean anything.
China is a communist country. The individual means nothing there. As a country china is definitely in a stronger position financially.
On the other hand India is a land of individuals. We fleece the country to fill our pockets. here national stastics do not mean much. They are just numbers to be presented in public to earn pity and loans. But consider individuals and the true picture will emerge. Look around you and tell me if you see a difference. You're in chennai, they have these new machines to declog the drains. They started cleaning up the marina with sand filters from Japan 10 years ago. I've been travelling to Chennai for the past 30 years and believe me, the change is enormous. Inflation is on a high. All these are not signs of inadequate funds. Misappropriation of funds is the reason for the poor statistics.
And by the way, we're up there with the best of the best. (Not as a nation but as persons). We are too disunited and disharmonius to perform well in collective statistics.
Now I get your point. Thanks for the explanation, India I agree is a country with the wealth concentrated on very few hands.

BTW, coming back to the topic, this being the case of our deficit, dont think the govt is in any near future going to do away with the taxes on sales of the fuel.

So the only direction the fuel prices is headed is upward. Be prepared for it. Even if not with heart, think about the situation of the country and accept it.
But for heavens sake dont misuse the heavily subsidized products like LPG for water heating and illegal LPG fitter cars etc. Its only make country's position worse.
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Old 10th June 2010, 16:34   #38
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The only reason to cheer when the prices of petrol dont rise because it saves my wallet. I hate seeing my taxes enjoyed as a fuel subsidy by a rich non tax payer or a bus transport company, even worse seeing him at a gas station on a Beemer while I drive a Swift.

Why cant the govt. remove TDS and tax every buying item at 33% IT plus 12.5% VAT, that way even the non tax payers will eventually be taxed.
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Old 10th June 2010, 19:11   #39
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Every buying item is charged 12.5%VAT all ready.
What's the news of congestion tax? Another money laundering scheme?
I believe free men should not need nor accept any subsidy. in anything.
We should live the life we can afford and afford the life we live.
The country would do well to accept a free market and not make allow communism to creep in. Subsidy is just that.
We cannot have reservation in a democracy, Religious differences (not personal religion but political and social groups) in a secular country, Subsidies for certain sectors in a socialist country, and seperate state laws in a republic.
If every indian was self respecting and willing to work for his own well being and not thrive on the alms given by a govt., we would lead much better lives. When we spend all our time and resources trying to find differences between each other and projecting our worst side to earn pity and undeserved subsidy, we cannot really progress. aka frogs in a well story.
For Indian sentimentality, a benovalent all powerful and just monarchy would be the best govt. When you put 2 heads of state (PM and President) and a zillion committees, our chances of getting work done is nil.
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Old 10th June 2010, 20:46   #40
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Originally Posted by wildsdi5530 View Post
Every buying item is charged 12.5%VAT all ready.
What's the news of congestion tax? Another money laundering scheme?
I believe free men should not need nor accept any subsidy. in anything.
We should live the life we can afford and afford the life we live.
The country would do well to accept a free market and not make allow communism to creep in. Subsidy is just that.
We cannot have reservation in a democracy, Religious differences (not personal religion but political and social groups) in a secular country, Subsidies for certain sectors in a socialist country, and seperate state laws in a republic.
If every indian was self respecting and willing to work for his own well being and not thrive on the alms given by a govt., we would lead much better lives. When we spend all our time and resources trying to find differences between each other and projecting our worst side to earn pity and undeserved subsidy, we cannot really progress. aka frogs in a well story.
For Indian sentimentality, a benovalent all powerful and just monarchy would be the best govt. When you put 2 heads of state (PM and President) and a zillion committees, our chances of getting work done is nil.

Every Indian includes physically and mentally handicapped people, people who prioritize food over fundamental rights because of their financial conditions, and people who are oppressed on the basis of religion, sex, caste, financial position, color etc.

Just because you're normal and don't face any of the difficulties faced by these people does not mean you get to curse them for being recipients of good deeds by individuals and the state. Without such selfless and humane deeds, they might not live to see another day.

Remember - To make one multi-billionaire, numerous people are forced to take the short end of the stick.
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Old 10th June 2010, 20:59   #41
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Surprisingly i read in todays business papers that IOC(indian oil company) has reported a net profit of 10,000crores for FY10 up 247%.I was under the impression that these petrol companies were running at a loss with the government propping them up with the fuel subsidy.
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Old 10th June 2010, 21:01   #42
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Originally Posted by AirWind View Post
The only reason to cheer when the prices of petrol dont rise because it saves my wallet. I hate seeing my taxes enjoyed as a fuel subsidy by a rich non tax payer or a bus transport company, even worse seeing him at a gas station on a Beemer while I drive a Swift.

Why cant the govt. remove TDS and tax every buying item at 33% IT plus 12.5% VAT, that way even the non tax payers will eventually be taxed.
How do you define a "rich non tax payer"?
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Old 10th June 2010, 21:19   #43
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In a country where one cannot depend the public transport system, it makes sense for the government to stablise the prices. Fuel is indirectly added as a cost for all services. Governments has a lot of revenue from taxes but poor project management and corruption is a pain in india.
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Old 10th June 2010, 23:01   #44
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How do you define a "rich non tax payer"?
Well that is a possibility
1. If they have lots of black money which they dont want to disclose
2. For chairman of large companies, or any board of directors, their source of income is the dividends that the companis pay to the share holders. these income are not taxable.
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Old 10th June 2010, 23:11   #45
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smashnerd, I believe that physically and mentally handicapped people are also abled. We have a term for that-differently abled. I work with such patients and so I know. I believe they shoud rehabilitate to earn their living and their loved ones should work harder to provide for them. Rather than running from pillar to post to get subsidized stuff.
I notice you're from Kottayam. I was there for a year and never noticed anyone 'oppressed on the basis of religion, sex, caste, financial position, color etc.' If anything, I noticed that of the 365 days, there were only 94 working days due to frequent hartals. Now these hartals were mainly to fight against oppression on the basis of religion, sex, caste, financial position, color etc. But I would have rather worked 250 days and done something worthwhile than sit doing demonstrations and preventing other people from their work.
Remember - To make one multi-billionaire, numerous people are forced to take the short end of the stick.
Tata once told that if he closed all his factories and distributed the money from the sale to all his employees, they would all get Rs.1000/- But by being a multi billioaire, he is providing livelihood to a million people.
Are you saying that it's better that no one is successful than a select hardworking few?
And I don't curse anyone. I just want people to give them the chance they deserve and not steal their self-respect from them by treating them like beggars just because they are differently abled. They are men and deserve to be treated like men. Not to throw scraps from your table in the name of subsidies.
@Avishar- statistics again. you can make them anyway you want it. You can prove both sides of a coin with the same data but different analysis.
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