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Old 10th June 2010, 23:38   #31
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The market is indeed getting over crowded with 1.2L cars. But they are getting leaner, meaner and fitter
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Old 11th June 2010, 00:32   #32
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Originally Posted by Nikhilb2008 View Post
Not true. The i20 A/T in Bangalore has a 3-4 week waiting list. Same as 1.2 M/T
Basically a slow mover is what I meant. Because they don't stock any more.
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Old 11th June 2010, 00:42   #33
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Well, I for one hopes it never ends.

Look at this - the Baleno used a 1.6 litre engine that produced 94bhp. The new K series engine produces just 10 bhp less but with 400cc less. And gives a ARAI mileage of 17 kmpl. I think the 1.2l engine wins. And the environment wins.

Less running cost to the customer due to more fuel mileage. Things like 8 litre V8 engines courtesy the Americans are a filthy show of wealth and unnecessary waste. Given the Indian driving conditions I think smaller displacement, high efficiency engines suit us better than big displacement engines.

The European engines are my cup of team. The displacement in each new version of Porsches, Ferraris etc either are less than before or a slight increase. But they are more powerful, more fuel efficient and emit less CO2. While being a petrolhead I think we should also think about sustainability so that a future generation of petrol heads can enjoy what we so.

In short I think with the new generation 1.2l engine we can eat the cake and have it too.

Drive on,
Shibu.
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Old 11th June 2010, 01:11   #34
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Originally Posted by shibujp
I think the 1.2l engine wins. And the environment wins.
Yes, another valid point in favour of the smaller, meaner engines.
While checking out the Estilo today, I took a brochure of the A-Star from the dealers, though we have no intention to buy it - just because I somehow love that car. And while going through the brochure, I was impressed reading the following :
  • A-Star voted the 2nd most environment-friendly hatchback in the world. // Wonder which came 1st.
  • A-Star won the "most FE car award" in Global Green Challenge Marathon, Australia.
I would feel really proud driving around such an env-friendly car. And Maruti had to screw its future by pricing it way above its segment.

Also frankly speaking, what do we really do with powerful cars in India ? Any decent road where you can do 40+, the cops are waiting with radars. Same with the ECR and highways. Hell, they even stand on the NH47 of Kerala which is called a highway, but is so pathetic that any local city road in Chennai can give it a run for its money.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 11th June 2010 at 01:13.
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Old 11th June 2010, 01:34   #35
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There's lots to be said in favour of smaller engines and many will continue to buy them. Frankly, a heap of power, for city driving, is a bit of a waste.

There's lot's more to be said in favour of choice.
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Old 11th June 2010, 07:29   #36
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And freedom of expression. The ones who want bigger horsepower plonk in bigger engines.
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Old 11th June 2010, 08:01   #37
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I think that the K12B is proof enough that 1.2 doesn't have to mean low performance. It's just that other than the Suzuki's K12B and the Chevy's S-TEC II, there are no exciting engines available.

What I'd like to see is 4-valve layout and DOHC becoming the norm across the range. Even Tata's 1.2 could be made fun, they had a 101PS 1.4L engine in the Indigo XL. I'm sure the Fiat's engine would do well too.

Doesn't Fiat have any modern petrol engines in its range in this capacity? Why is it that they're still using the FIRE series? I remember that the original Uno came with a 1L FIRE engine ten years ago.

What I don't understand is why Turbos aren't common yet. Imagine what a K12B would be like with a VGT.
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Old 11th June 2010, 08:14   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
There's lots to be said in favour of smaller engines and many will continue to buy them. Frankly, a heap of power, for city driving, is a bit of a waste.
There's lot's more to be said in favour of choice.
Perfect!

Like most have mentioned earlier, a lot can be done reasonably inexpensively by manufacturers to optimize for this capacity. The Suzuki 1.2 engines are quite good, but to be very honest, I quite like the Indica Vista's 1.2 engine (ie. Fiat's), it has never felt underpowered to me in city driving (although to be perfectly honest, I've only test driven it)
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Old 11th June 2010, 09:44   #39
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
The point to me is choice. Buying a car in UK is almost baffling. You want slow and cheap to run? fine! You want to leave rubber marks at every traffic signal, buy lots of petrol and gets lots of speeding fines? Certainly! And in between... 1.2; 1.4; 1.6; 1.8; 2.0... a vast amount of choice.
Yes, we need choices in Indian market. For someone like me who wants to upgrade from santro to spacious hatch, none of the current 1.2L hatches interest me much.
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Old 11th June 2010, 10:00   #40
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Originally Posted by shibujp View Post
Look at this - the Baleno used a 1.6 litre engine that produced 94bhp. The new K series engine produces just 10 bhp less but with 400cc less.
The next generation Swift it said to come with 1.2L 94ps engine in the international markets. K series with VVT, i suppose!

Thats almost at par with the old 1.6 engines! (Baleno, Ikon) etc. Wonder if our fuel quality will be good enough for these modern generation engines!
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Old 11th June 2010, 10:00   #41
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How many Fiat Palio 1.6s do you see around despite being extremely good at power and stability? Hardly any in Pune atleast. Its the consumer who decides what runs in the market. I personally wanted to opt for the 1.6 Polo, but then seeing the driving conditions in Pune and the considering the cost factor, I too opted for the 1.2.
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Old 11th June 2010, 10:44   #42
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This madness will end the day GOI lifts those outdated norms of 1.2L engined small car tax benefits.

IMO, the capacity of engines for tax benefits in India must be raised to 1.4L for petrol and 1.6 for diesel atleast. 1.2 is not that good with full load on highway cruising as compared to 1.4. 1.4 is slightly above need for in town driving, but for highway, 12-1.3 is a bit less specially for those single lane highways where you really need to power for overtaking.

The best 1.2 in country right now are units from Suzuki and Honda. Even in these two motors ( they are excellent units for the given capacity ), the acceleration after 140 is not that good.

Another advantage is that we EU has cars with 1.4L engine, even in diesel format. So we can see better units from EU manufacturers.
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Old 11th June 2010, 11:09   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaggoswami View Post
This madness will end the day GOI lifts those outdated norms of 1.2L engined small car tax benefits.
Why do you feel these norms are outdated? Car manufacturers are free to bring in models with higher engine capacities. The government is only encouraging manufacturers to bring in more efficient engines (means greener) in the largest car market segment in India.

Quote:
IMO, the capacity of engines for tax benefits in India must be raised to 1.4L for petrol and 1.6 for diesel atleast. 1.2 is not that good with full load on highway cruising as compared to 1.4. 1.4 is slightly above need for in town driving, but for highway, 12-1.3 is a bit less specially for those single lane highways where you really need to power for overtaking.
I agree. On 2-laned highways it helps to have more power/torgue for overtaking. But then if most of the cars sold were of 1.4 - 1.6L category, then you would need a higher powered engine for overtaking and people would start asking for 1.8 - 2.0L engines.

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The best 1.2 in country right now are units from Suzuki and Honda. Even in these two motors ( they are excellent units for the given capacity ), the acceleration after 140 is not that good.
Are you kidding? Acceleration beyond 140 is not good? You'd be better off buying an expensive sports car if you expect such things from small mass marketed hatches. And where are we supposed to drive at these speeds? Already India is having the highest number of road fatalities in the world. With the kind of drivers/roads that we have in India, I think we would be better off, from a safety point of view with cars that are more sedate. I do not want to get into the argument that people at 10 kmph can also be driving rashly. Majority of our drivers are in this category. So imagine if they had higher powered cars at lower costs.

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Another advantage is that we EU has cars with 1.4L engine, even in diesel format. So we can see better units from EU manufacturers.
I agree.

-Biju
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Old 11th June 2010, 11:13   #44
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Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
... What I don't understand is why Turbos aren't common yet....
Turbocharging 1.2L engines seem to be the logical progression. But consider the cons -
1. Most manufacturers are wary of introducing these high-maintenance engines in the price-sensitive hatchback segment. It is a well-known fact that turbo-charged engines cost a bomb to maintain and run. Part of the reason why VW hasn't yet introduced the 1.2TSI in Polo in India.

2. The HUGE turbo-lag introduced by turbocharging. Just google for the youtube video where Jeremy Clarkson, while reviewing the Mitsubishi Evo X, ends up with egg on his face trying to drag-race a granny in a sensible city hatch. The car just didn't accelerate.

Last edited by WindRide : 11th June 2010 at 11:16.
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Old 11th June 2010, 11:23   #45
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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
There's lots to be said in favour of smaller engines and many will continue to buy them. Frankly, a heap of power, for city driving, is a bit of a waste.

There's lot's more to be said in favour of choice.
You hit the nail on the head, but its a case of too few square pegs and too many round holes.
We cry ourselves hoarse and hold off from making a purchase; the hordes go ahead and buy.
There is a lot to be said in favor of small engines, agreed. Case in point, VW's emasculated Polo. Excise benefits, environmental benefits, monetary benefits and more could be addressed by just offering one simple option, the 1.2 TSI.
And they give us the poor-fuel-quality run-around. Why are we paying extra money for BS4 cars and fuel right now then if nothing is compliant?
For me personally, I have very specific requirements: I drive to Goa at least two or three times a year; from Bangalore thats a round trip of close to 1400 Km each time.
A 1.2 on the highway keeps me on the road at least an hour longer than if i had a more powerful hatch, and replacing a Palio with the current crop simply for the ABS and Airbags is not doing it for me.
If the Polo was launched with the 1.2 TSI i would have booked it day one.
Take a look at the current UK configurator for the Polo. The choice boggles.
We talk of price sensitivity~ it wouldnt be this way if the government wasnt saddling us with so many duties. Why is it that the fully loaded top of spec Polo in the UK costs 11 lakh something, and a colleague on this forum bought a GOLF with a 1.4 TSI and a whole lot of goodies for 12? If we are to blame price sensitivity, it is the government who is skewing the pitch in the first place!

Last edited by crackingride : 11th June 2010 at 11:29.
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