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Old 11th June 2010, 18:16   #61
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rotary engines anyone? 200+ hp from a 1.3 litre engine is sweet music!

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Old 11th June 2010, 19:04   #62
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700cc, 3 cylinder, 130 horsepower turbocharged 5 stroke!!!

Sounds crazy? Well in the coming years this just might be the standard engine under the hood.

I do not understand the fixation with the displacement of the engine - if you are given the option of greater power with lesser displacement. Burn the fuel to the last atom and sqeeze all the power out of it. That is what OEMs are doing now.

Forget market strategy, forget government taxes, forget devious plans of a handful of people to deprive people of large displacement engines. In the end we ARE running out of fossil fuel. All these schemes wont work when there is no oil to run an ICE.

Look at the bright side, OEMs are working towards giving us smaller and FE engines, but with greater power.

P:S - Here is the link to the first statement:
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...inder-130-bhp/
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Old 11th June 2010, 22:24   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yzfrj
I've seen speed limit of 100 when I drove down to KL on Bangalore - Salem highway. So more power can be very useful on the highway.
Next time do that on your Vtec and let me know how much time you saved on the whole journey as compared to the Zen. I can bet that it won't be much, since I did not see significant difference when doing the same Chennai-Kerala stretch in M800 or Baleno.

In a country where traffic, signals, cattle and bikers/tractors coming the opposite way on a highway are great levellers, a more powerful car doesn't really make much of a difference.

Doubt me ? Try this simple comparo on the IT-corridor. Start at Madhya_Kailas alongside an M800, with you in the Vtec. In 1-1.5 mins you would have blazed away to TIDEL Park signal. As you listen to the ICE, the M800 guy will coast to a stop alongside you. This pattern will continue all the way.

I had this happen to me and that was when I was so dejected that I decided it was better to atleast drive slow and be more FE - led to a 6-month period when I managed to get 14kmpl in city from my 1.6l car.

Same pattern another time when I am on my CD-100 and a lady in her MB-SUV. This time, I could not help smiling as she would blaze off at each signal from Thoraipakkam to Kotturpuram, while at the next signal I would be alongside her.

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Originally Posted by yzfrj
I was missing my vtec
I noticed your signature. Did you buy one ? What year and how much ? In Kerala ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooney
Burn the fuel to the last atom and sqeeze all the power out of it. In the end we ARE running out of fossil fuel.
I am with you, mate. If there is a better way of doing things efficiently, I am all for it. Especially when it concerns rapidly depleting petroleum.
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Old 11th June 2010, 23:47   #64
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You can, temporarily and currently, blame the GoI tax laws for the 1.2 L madness, but at the end of the day the issue is very simple: Fuel Efficiency.

The way fuel prices are going northwards and petroleum reserves going southwards, it makes a lot of sense. Small capacity engines are here to stay. Not to forget the fact that a contemporary 1.2 L K-series engine produces more power and sips much less fuel than a circa-2002 1.2 L Palio.

There were many performance-oriented driver's cars way back in 2002-2003 than now. But, what we forget is that these were bought by a lot of people for whom performance was not a priority but they didn't mind the petrol prices, either. So all owners of the 1.5 L OHC were not performance lovers, some simply liked the car and bought it (It's a Honda!!). Given a choice, they moved to the NHC because they got similar or better features / comfort / space with less power but more FE.

At the end of the day, I would rather take that 1400 km weekend trip on a car delivering 20 km/l than on one delivering 14 km/l on the highway. I save a packet on fuel costs and with the turbo, I am not significantly slower either. I don't mind the waiting a few micro-seconds for the turbo to spool.

It is assumed by manufacturers in India that if you have money to burn and crave for only performance, you can afford to buy and run a BMW or an RD 350! There's no middle ground, atleast not enough to set-up a new engine-assembly line. Notice the size of the ARAI FE placards in the showrooms are getting larger.
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Old 12th June 2010, 00:16   #65
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Grrrreat thread! I too hate to see every manufacturer making a beeline for 1.2 litre engine. Govt. regulations/market needs, my foot. Let them make 1.2s by thousands. Who is stopping 'em? But for every thousand 1.2s they make, let them ALSO make a few handful hot-hatches by plonking a bigger plant in the same bodyshell--- to cater to enthusiasts who look beyond pushing the car to as many kms as it can go on a litre of fuel, crawling.
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Old 12th June 2010, 00:34   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRide View Post
Turbocharging 1.2L engines seem to be the logical progression. But consider the cons -
1. Most manufacturers are wary of introducing these high-maintenance engines in the price-sensitive hatchback segment. It is a well-known fact that turbo-charged engines cost a bomb to maintain and run. Part of the reason why VW hasn't yet introduced the 1.2TSI in Polo in India.
Why does a Turbo have to be high maintenance? I've never really heard of turbos needing maintenance other than waiting for it to spin up and down. The engine block needs to be reinforced, but that's done at the factory end. If Tata can offer an FGT and a VGT on an entry-level hatchback, why can't others? Why can't Tata offer a VGT-equipped Vista Safire or Indigo?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WindRide
2. The HUGE turbo-lag introduced by turbocharging. Just google for the youtube video where Jeremy Clarkson, while reviewing the Mitsubishi Evo X, ends up with egg on his face trying to drag-race a granny in a sensible city hatch. The car just didn't accelerate.
That's apples and oranges, really. The Evo X has huge race-tuned turbos which obviously have huge lag. A correctly tuned street Turbo has minimal lag with a reasonable boost. Like the Ford TDCi or the Suzuki DDiS. I'm not talking 1000bhp, just 100 .

My point is, just about every small diesel engine car has some kind of Turbo to compensate for low capacity. Why not small capacity petrols then? Forced Induction is not only more powerful, but also more frugal. If some manufacturer introduced a 1.2L turbo engine with 100bhp, it would sell for its kpl as well as kph.

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Originally Posted by sgiitk View Post
I have a feeling that a supercharged engine mat be taxed for the capacity incl. the supercharger. Also, VW has a 1.2TSi and all reports are very good.
Turbo/supercharging doesn't increase the engine capacity. Engine volume or capacity remains the same, only power is more due to forced induction. The Figo 1.2 with 68 bhp and the Honda Jazz 1.2 with 90 bhp have the same excise duty benefits. Only restriction is in length and engine capacity.

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Originally Posted by architect View Post
It is assumed by manufacturers in India that if you have money to burn and crave for only performance, you can afford to buy and run a BMW or an RD 350! There's no middle ground, atleast not enough to set-up a new engine-assembly line. Notice the size of the ARAI FE placards in the showrooms are getting larger.
You said it brother! In the present scenario, you can either opt for low performance/low cost, or high performance/high cost. But the KB series engines from Suzuki and Chevy's STEC-II are refreshing changes, though the engines are on cars that are too heavy for them. How'bout a 1.2L A-Star or Spark?

Last edited by vivekgk : 12th June 2010 at 00:35.
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Old 12th June 2010, 01:17   #67
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Okay guys, I really give up debating on this thread. Most of you talk as if you grew up driving a Camaro, the lesser mustang 350, Chevelle, 'Cudda, GrandAm, et al when you were teenagers. If you really are honest about it, the most powerful cars (read engine displacement) we had were the Amby and the Padmini. Most of the car enthusiasts in India only know in theory what a performance car is. In real life most of us (the Indian consumer) have only driven economy cars. We saw our dream cars only in pictures, poster and movies. So what is the point fighting for 0.2-, 0.4-, o.6-L difference in displacement?

What are you cribbing about?
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Old 12th June 2010, 02:00   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooney View Post
....What are you cribbing about?
City drivability. That's what we are cribbing about. My friend took a TD of Punto 1.2. He was standing on the accelerator most of the time. He was in a foul mood later when i met him.

I will buy a 1.6L over a 1.2L car any day, not because i want to zip around like a head less chicken. But for reasons Gilead mentioned in his post earlier...

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Originally Posted by Gilead View Post
You don't have to really let loose to appreciate a powerful car even in city driving. I have been driving an M800 for several years and mostly drive a Fiesta now. The difference in sheer driveability between the two cannot even be compared. It's just way easier in a more powerful car. Less gear changes, changing lanes with ease, finding gaps and taking them in a blink etc.
Every day need not be a track-day with a 1.6L car.
And regarding FE of a bigger engine, i have heard fiesta 1.6 owners say 12+ kmpl is achievable if you resist the temptation to unleash the beast under the bonnet very frequently and properly utilize the superb low end torque . I believe them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vivekgk View Post
Why does a Turbo have to be high maintenance? .....
I have read 1.8TSI ownership threads that seem to indicate the thirsty nature of that engine. Gulps significant quantities of synthetic engine oil every few thousand kms. I will assume a similar behaviour with lesser displacement as well. And god forbid if the turbo packs up, you will feel much lighter, if you know what i mean.

Last edited by WindRide : 12th June 2010 at 02:11.
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Old 12th June 2010, 02:56   #69
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Hmmm... I've made it very clear that I believe in choice. I'd be happy to see the ranges extended with more options.

From my personal experience of late... before I came to India in 2005 I was driving, in London, a 2.0 auto. When my mum died a couple of years later, I drove her very-old Micra, both on motorway trips and London driving. I don't even remember the engine size, maybe as small as 1.0, not much at all. I have to admit that, it made me wonder why I'd wasted so much money on feeding petrol into my 2.00litre!
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Old 12th June 2010, 07:13   #70
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OK, looking at all the things that all of us have been saying so far - one thing stands out. We are enthusiasts and we want (i.e. need) our hot hatches. We are not satisfied with bog standard 1.2s.

I bought the 1.2 Figo for its chassis & suspension. End of warranty will probably find me on a shopping trip to UK, trying to buy a second-hand Fiesta ST (or at least a Zetec S engine/gearbox) from a scrappy.

Forced induction is the way to go. As I have said earlier, it hugely improves driveability that most of us need in the city. And it still has that massive oomph of power to put a grin on our faces while driving on the highway.
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Old 12th June 2010, 11:48   #71
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The 1.2L engine madness would only end when the Govt. and its rule-framing babus do realise that a smaller engine does not mean more efficient and less polluting.

However a 1.2L engine also does suffice for city driving (used most of the time). But as comsumers we should be given a choice with engines at sensible prices. Knowing our babus' way of working, if a 1.2L engine powered car is 300,000 then inevitably a 1.6L or 1.8L powered car would be at least 600,000.

If most of you remember, the Mercedes S class was pronounced a more effecient and cleaner car (for its size) compared to a Toyota Prius by TUV. (On TG season 9 or 10).
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Old 12th June 2010, 11:58   #72
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Quote:
we want (i.e. need) our hot hatches.
want, not need.

That was the lesson to me of driving the tiny Micra.

It did not even have power steering --- but had been driven by a woman of almost 90.
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Old 12th June 2010, 21:06   #73
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I think a much better approach should be to cap fuel economy instead of engine displacement. That is, the Govt. should be giving excise benefits to lets say cars delivering over 30 mpg, irrespective of the engine size. So a BMW 3L diesel has as much a fair chance as a Fiat 1.3L diesel.

And then you charge them a higher excise duty if you're under 30 mpg. They can even put CO2 emissions into the equation.
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Old 12th June 2010, 22:53   #74
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There was a similar thread elsewhere in the forum. not able to find it now.
Was discussing whether driving a less powerful more fuel efficient car (iDSI) or a powerful but less fuel efficient car (VTEC) at high speed ~140kph was more fuel efficient. I do not know what the consensus was.
What I've noticed is that when I drive my Alto Lxi to Chennai, maintaining close to 120Kph, with A/C on, I get a mileage of ~10Kpl. When I drive at ~80Kph, I get >20Kpl. Same with my City Gxi. ~140 kph I get ~11Kpl, ~100 Kph, I get upto 17Kpl. Now I'm wondering what milage I would get if I drive the Palio 1.6 GTX at 120 Kph? Or the VTEC at ~140Kph.
All speeds are the max I reach on the road in the trip.
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Old 14th June 2010, 14:34   #75
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I think there has to be a clear distinction in the segments of customer.

There is a clear difference between an off-road customer and a commuter customer. But there is an idiotic mixing and jubbling of petrolhead with commuter segment of customers.

Petrolheads just like off-road drivers, should get a distinct space in market. E.g. a Mahindra Thar will never be meant for mass segment and the sale number will be a 'practical' estimation. This car will never be kept in competition with commuters.

I think something similar needs to be deployed for performance cars.
If a perfomance car(read 1.6L) looks similar to its commuter sibling(read 1.2L) doesn't means both the cars are same. And eventually should not compete for their sales number.

I dont think having a performance version of a car will bring down the sale number of its commuter sibling.

I am ready to give away my Palio1.2 if I get a 100odd bhp 1.6L swift despite of my personal dislike towards maruti and love towards Fiat.

A live e.g. My cousin canceled his i20 booking for a 1.6L Polo. The dealer has assured delivery in sept (I dont know if its possible though). This happened in nagpur and the price is between 7-8L.
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