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Old 28th June 2010, 22:06   #1
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Default Tata working on a Rs20-30 lakh car with JLR.

Just stumbled upon this link:

TaMo, JLR plan emerging mart car - dnaindia.com

No details yet on what kind of vehicle is this. If I have to take a guess that would be a SUV. Considering that the vehicle will be manufactured in India, Rs 20-30 lakhs I think is too high on the price as before taxes the price will be very close to JLR vehicles. Welcome your opinions/thoughts.
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Old 28th June 2010, 22:12   #2
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will be Interesting to see Tata try and sell a car 30+ lacs when they have Trouble Doing so with cars >10 lacs.

Sorry For Being a Narcissist but, a Giant like Maruti Couldn't pull it off(Read Vitara), I doubt a 30 lac vehicle sporting a Tata Badge can make it regardless of the Fit and Finish, Ride Quality etc.
IMO if they badge it as a LR or Jag it will do better.

second suggestion, Heavily Localize JLR's and increase volumes as They will have the price advantage over BMW's ,Audi's and Merc's.

Last edited by vinaydas : 28th June 2010 at 22:14.
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Old 28th June 2010, 22:26   #3
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I think what Tata should do is too instead of focus on its Prima sedan,and use its JLR connection to improve its interior and build quality and build high displacement engines.
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Old 28th June 2010, 22:36   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
will be Interesting to see Tata try and sell a car 30+ lacs when they have Trouble Doing so with cars >10 lacs.

Sorry For Being a Narcissist but, a Giant like Maruti Couldn't pull it off(Read Vitara), I doubt a 30 lac vehicle sporting a Tata Badge can make it regardless of the Fit and Finish, Ride Quality etc.

second suggestion, Heavily Localize JLR's and increase volumes as They will have the price advantage over BMW's ,Audi's and Merc's.
If Maruti cannot pull it off(being a 72 year old company) that does not mean end of the game. Hyundai has tried it in western markets with Genesis and they pulled it off. Even Tata with Safari is doing lot better than Maruti(vitara) in India. Though Rs 20-30 lakh is high for the indian market, I would wait for the product details before making a judgement. Aria will show us if Tata is headed in that direction.

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Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
IMO if they badge it as a LR or Jag it will do better.
When will we learn to look at the product not the brand. Atleast not every one will fooled by the badge.

Last edited by airbender : 28th June 2010 at 22:39.
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Old 28th June 2010, 22:39   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
Sorry For Being a Narcissist but, a Giant like Maruti Couldn't pull it off(Read Vitara), I doubt a 30 lac vehicle sporting a Tata Badge can make it regardless of the Fit and Finish, Ride Quality etc.
+1; the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear the word Tata is the pathetic service & horrible customer service of T.A.S.S from TBHP. Why don't Tata focus something to do better on improving customer service rather than introducing new products?
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Old 28th June 2010, 22:52   #6
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They are developing this car because it will be cheaper than any of the JLR vehicles(and they don't plan to launch a cheaper JLR vehicle as it will be bad for the brand). I think people running a conglomerate with revenues of ~$70 Billion are far more informed on this matter than any of the armchair experts on this forum.

<rant>It is sad to see how we have gone even beyond trashing indigenously developed products, that we are now even trashing any attempt at developing indigenous stuff. Seems like an aftereffect of ~800 years of videshi rule, that we still crave for everything videshi and trash everything desi.</rant>

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Old 28th June 2010, 22:54   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
Sorry For Being a Narcissist but, a Giant like Maruti Couldn't pull it off(Read Vitara), I doubt a 30 lac vehicle sporting a Tata Badge can make it regardless of the Fit and Finish, Ride Quality etc.
IMO if they badge it as a LR or Jag it will do better.
I have a different opinion..

I am witnessing Tata Group is slowly moving from a commodity product towards Value added products to Luxury products.

Steel --> Gold / Diamond business
Soaps/salts --> Hotels, Resorts
Dust Tea --> premium english tea
Machine tools --> Watches, Jewelery
Trucks --> Buses --> High end buses
Entry cars --> luxury cars
Domestic controlled market --> competitive value driven export market
Low margin businesses --> high margin / brand differentiated products.

"Positioning" is key, If the marketeers can "Differentiate" a 20-30L car consumer w.r.t. the entry car consumer and meet/exceed expectations in terms value delivery, then success is close by.
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Old 28th June 2010, 23:04   #8
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Seems like TATA is following the path of Hyundai, which is awesome. Eventhough Hyundai had failures/mis-launches in Sonata,Elantra,Azera, etc. they went ahead with the Genesis platform and now the sedan and coupe are both considered to be good cars. Now may be with the new learnings, the re-designed Sonata is also getting good reviews.

So, hopefully TATA's learnings in this new project will help the product lines downstream. Eagerly waiting to see the concept car.
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Old 28th June 2010, 23:17   #9
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Originally Posted by gshanky View Post
Seems like TATA is following the path of Hyundai, which is awesome. Eventhough Hyundai had failures/mis-launches in Sonata,Elantra,Azera, etc. they went ahead with the Genesis platform and now the sedan and coupe are both considered to be good cars. Now may be with the new learnings, the re-designed Sonata is also getting good reviews.

So, hopefully TATA's learnings in this new project will help the product lines downstream. Eagerly waiting to see the concept car.
I was about to mention that, but don't think there is much hope for those who think that Desi Companies must give up after first try, shouldn't attempt to do anything for the first time not or multitasking.

If Ratan Tata would have listened to these folks, he wouldn't have taken up the initiative to develop Nano because no one before then had tried to do that.
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Old 28th June 2010, 23:31   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender View Post
If Maruti cannot pull it off(being a 72 year old company) that does not mean end of the game. Hyundai has tried it in western markets with Genesis and they pulled it off. Even Tata with Safari is doing lot better than Maruti(vitara) in India. Though Rs 20-30 lakh is high for the indian market, I would wait for the product details before making a judgement. Aria will show us if Tata is headed in that direction.



When will we learn to look at the product not the brand. Atleast not every one will fooled by the badge.
The American Market is Completely different from that of the Indian Market.
+ Hyundai has the Experience and Do offer Cars which are priced 20 + lacs(In Indian Money ) such as the Sonata The Accord/Camry Alternative, The Tucson a CRV alternative so Them Offering an S Class Alternative (The Genesis ) Was not a Big Surprise and Hence Did well.

The safari base version Costs around 8-10 lacs compared to the 20+ Vitara so no way they both can be compared to the price range.
Even our Home grown Scorpio is beating the safari Black and Blue with over 4k Numbers compared to the sub 1k of the safari.


The Badge is part of the Package aint it?(This Is a Double Edged Sword as We Have Quite A Few Tata Fanatics who are crazy Enough to Take the Plunge)Especially In India, why do you think people are paying through their Nose for Bmw's and Merc's when you probably get the same space or more in a 12 Lac Rupee Altis(referring to the C and 3 and A4).
People (Me Included) will find it Hard to Digest a 30 Lac Rupee Tata Period.

What Tata Should Really Be Doing, Is Increasing Their Productivity and New Standards in Their QC Department Plus Stringent Enforcement of Quality Control on After Sales and Service.Im sure many Tata owners would agree on me with this. Imagine Giving your 30+ lac Tata in the Current pathetic tata service Centers( Yes i Do know ,what Tata service is Because I do own a Fiat)

P.S This will Turn Into a Tata Support/Bashing Thread pretty soon, as is the Case with Most Tata related Threads (hence my Rather Occasional Visits To such threads.

Last edited by vinaydas : 28th June 2010 at 23:43.
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Old 28th June 2010, 23:46   #11
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I am thinking that this could be the new LandRover entry level SUV which is being planned in another year or two. It could be assembled in India is my guess. If I remember correctly, that entry level model also comes in a 2WD guise, the first for a LR.
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Old 29th June 2010, 00:11   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The American Market is Completely different from that of the Indian Market.
+ Hyundai has the Experience and Do offer Cars which are priced 20 + lacs(In Indian Money ) such as the Sonata The Accord/Camry Alternative, The Tucson a CRV alternative so Them Offering an S Class Alternative (The Genesis ) Was not a Big Surprise and Hence Did well.
How do you think they gained that experience, by not even trying ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The safari base version Costs around 8-10 lacs compared to the 20+ Vitara so no way they both can be compared to the price range.
Even our Home grown Scorpio is beating the safari Black and Blue with over 4k Numbers compared to the sub 1k of the safari.
So a newer car is selling more than an older car, how surprising.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The Badge is part of the Package aint it?(This Is a Double Edged Sword as We Have Quite A Few Tata Fanatics who are crazy Enough to Take the Plunge)Especially In India, why do you think people are paying through their Nose for Bmw's and Merc's when you probably get the same space or more in a 12 Lac Rupee Altis(referring to the C and 3 and A4).
People (Me Included) will find it Hard to Digest a 30 Lac Rupee Tata Period.
Again, how else should they build their brand(badge) without attempting to sell more costly vehicles ? In past their badge was associated with rugged Trucks, despite that people buy/bought cars with same logo..

There are 1.18 Billion people, some might be able to digest desi attempt at luxury vehicles. Others will continue to crave for videshi logos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
What Tata Should Really Be Doing, Is Increasing Their Productivity and New Standards in Their QC Department Plus Stringent Enforcement of Quality Control on After Sales and Service.Im sure many Tata owners would agree on me with this. Imagine Giving your 30+ lac Tata in the Current pathetic tata service Centers( Yes i Do know ,what Tata service is Because I do own a Fiat)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dictionary
multitasking [ˈmʌltɪˌtɑːskɪŋ]
n
1. (Electronics & Computer Science / Computer Science) Computing the execution of various diverse tasks simultaneously
2. the carrying out of two or more tasks at the same time by one person
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Old 29th June 2010, 00:50   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The American Market is Completely different from that of the Indian Market.
+ Hyundai has the Experience and Do offer Cars which are priced 20 + lacs(In Indian Money ) such as the Sonata The Accord/Camry Alternative, The Tucson a CRV alternative so Them Offering an S Class Alternative (The Genesis ) Was not a Big Surprise and Hence Did well.
In any market VFM makers try to push themselves to more expensive products. Yes Hyundai had products which were considered VFM for Accord/Camry or a CRV. They for the first time tried to do a VFM for a BMW or Merc. That's a next step for them. You were talking as if Accord to BMW/Merc segments were comparable. They are two different segments. The way you compare Accord to Merc say a lot about your knowledge. Every automaker tries to do that. Suzuki also did but failed. It's now Tata's turn to do that. Upcoming Aria will be a point in case.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The safari base version Costs around 8-10 lacs compared to the 20+ Vitara so no way they both can be compared to the price range.
Even our Home grown Scorpio is beating the safari Black and Blue with over 4k Numbers compared to the sub 1k of the safari.
I only talked about Vitara as you said 10 lakh plus cars. Vitara sells in single digits. Safari even though more than a decade old sells about a 1000. Coming to your comparision between scorpio and safari, scorpio is a newer vehicle. Still I think 1000 per month for safari is very decent. I see it as a good thing that scorpio is doing well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The Badge is part of the Package aint it?(This Is a Double Edged Sword as We Have Quite A Few Tata Fanatics who are crazy Enough to Take the Plunge)Especially In India, why do you think people are paying through their Nose for Bmw's and Merc's when you probably get the same space or more in a 12 Lac Rupee Altis(referring to the C and 3 and A4).
People (Me Included) will find it Hard to Digest a 30 Lac Rupee Tata Period.
Using the word fanatics is offensive. No sane person will pay for that small piece of metal. They only pay for the brand if it comes with some values. The way you put it(it might sell as JLR) is like saying badge indica as JLR and it will sell for 20 lakhs. That sounds so insane.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
P.S This will Turn Into a Tata Support/Bashing Thread pretty soon, as is the Case with Most Tata related Threads (hence my Rather Occasional Visits To such threads.
It's people like you who turn it into a bashing thread. How can you make a judgement just based on the price. You are a regular on threads like this often starting the bashing. I am not saying the product is a success or a failure. I would only except wise people to atleast wait for the product details or even better for the product launch before they pass a judgement.
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Old 29th June 2010, 01:30   #14
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
If Maruti cannot pull it off(being a 72 year old company) that does not mean end of the game. Hyundai has tried it in western markets with Genesis and they pulled it off. Even Tata with Safari is doing lot better than Maruti(vitara) in India. Though Rs 20-30 lakh is high for the indian market, I would wait for the product details before making a judgement. Aria will show us if Tata is headed in that direction.



When will we learn to look at the product not the brand. Atleast not every one will fooled by the badge.
Yes, we should wait to get more details before bashing/praising the product. But looking at what TATA has done so far, IMO if the car is going to be priced at 20 Lakhs it will have the features and luxury of 35 Lakh car. But before everything, TATA has to dig in to the Jaguar closet to get the right hardware combination to build up on like engine, gearbox, transmission, chassis, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by StarVegabond View Post
I have a different opinion..

I am witnessing Tata Group is slowly moving from a commodity product towards Value added products to Luxury products.

Steel --> Gold / Diamond business
Soaps/salts --> Hotels, Resorts
Dust Tea --> premium english tea
Machine tools --> Watches, Jewelery
Trucks --> Buses --> High end buses
Entry cars --> luxury cars
Domestic controlled market --> competitive value driven export market
Low margin businesses --> high margin / brand differentiated products.

"Positioning" is key, If the marketeers can "Differentiate" a 20-30L car consumer w.r.t. the entry car consumer and meet/exceed expectations in terms value delivery, then success is close by.
Very good analysis. TATA have been very good with almost all the businesses. Their strategy have been good in most of their businesses and TML should be no exception. When TATA bought JLR and the economy went down a lot of them(even in t-bhp) said that it was a huge waste of money. Back then I defended that it is a good strategic investment even if only to learn/license/reverse-engineer the technologies in JLR. But now JLR is in profit and the value is being seen in downstream products also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The American Market is Completely different from that of the Indian Market.
+ Hyundai has the Experience and Do offer Cars which are priced 20 + lacs(In Indian Money ) such as the Sonata The Accord/Camry Alternative, The Tucson a CRV alternative so Them Offering an S Class Alternative (The Genesis ) Was not a Big Surprise and Hence Did well.
Well, ofcourse american market is completely different. They call most of japanese cars as boring eventhough they buy them a lot . And in american market camry and accord are not luxury cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The safari base version Costs around 8-10 lacs compared to the 20+ Vitara so no way they both can be compared to the price range.
Even our Home grown Scorpio is beating the safari Black and Blue with over 4k Numbers compared to the sub 1k of the safari.
Well, if Scorpio is beating safari black and blue then every other car is beating Vitara in every color imaginable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
The Badge is part of the Package aint it?(This Is a Double Edged Sword as We Have Quite A Few Tata Fanatics who are crazy Enough to Take the Plunge)Especially In India, why do you think people are paying through their Nose for Bmw's and Merc's when you probably get the same space or more in a 12 Lac Rupee Altis(referring to the C and 3 and A4).
Badge and brand IS the package. People are willing to consider any Merc or Bimmer just because of the brand. Read somewhere but can't believe X6 has started selling some decent numbers..

Again - especially in india no one is paying through nose to buy a merc and bimmer. You must be joking. They are not just expensive to buy, they are also expensive to keep, especially if it is petrol where you have to put the premium petrol. The maintenance for diesel should be decent. In USA we get 4 years free maintenance from BMW, but not in india. Still folks are buying because they can afford it. Not through their nose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
People (Me Included) will find it Hard to Digest a 30 Lac Rupee Tata Period.
I don't know about people but you seem to be biased.


Quote:
Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
What Tata Should Really Be Doing, Is Increasing Their Productivity and New Standards in Their QC Department Plus Stringent Enforcement of Quality Control on After Sales and Service.Im sure many Tata owners would agree on me with this. Imagine Giving your 30+ lac Tata in the Current pathetic tata service Centers( Yes i Do know ,what Tata service is Because I do own a Fiat)

P.S This will Turn Into a Tata Support/Bashing Thread pretty soon, as is the Case with Most Tata related Threads (hence my Rather Occasional Visits To such threads.
Well, this is the best part of your whole post where you being constructively critical.

Occasional or frequent be less biased and try to remain objective, positive and constructive
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Old 29th June 2010, 03:53   #15
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Although the report has some basis, the price range predicted is a blind shot in the dark. JLR doesnt need to think outside UK for a vehicle priced near the 30 lac zone. At this range other factors have more priority over pricing and moving production to India will not give them any major advantages.

I think the report is talking about the Defender. Carl Foster has made it evident that the existing model is overpriced and has become niche rather than the VFM go anywhere vehicle it was intended to be.

Even the denomination used for the initial designs give away a hint of the Defender name, of course all these are assumptions. JLR over the years have been sitting on one of the biggest names in the UV market but never made any use of it. They need to make the Defender and its spin offs target the likes of L200s, Navaras, Hilux etc...etc...

This is where Tata will come in, not for a 30 lac car. The platform can benefit both companies on either end of the price range.
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