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View Poll Results: Would you still buy a Diesel car?
Yes 527 45.16%
No 551 47.22%
Don't Know 89 7.63%
Voters: 1167. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 5th July 2010, 21:55   #151
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^ The price difference would still be there - new Diesels are still costlier, ain't they?!!
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Old 5th July 2010, 22:25   #152
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I don't think diesel prices will equal petrol prices anytime soon. The public transport system and transport of essential commodities relies on diesel, whereas only bike and car users use petrol. Most of the call taxis run on gas/diesel. Autorickshaws are not affected anyway because they already ridiculously overcharge. So I think the Govt will keep the image of "subsidizing" diesel and "milking" petrol car owners - through tax, of course.
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Old 5th July 2010, 22:29   #153
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Will have to do the math on what is the cheaper car in the long run. My choice is "Dont know"

Theres no great difference in ownership experience between modern diesels and petrols so i wont really differentiate between them on any other counts
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Old 5th July 2010, 22:37   #154
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Stitching a set of corners,
Enjoying that sunday morning while driving uphill
shifting at 7k so that the full power pins you,
exhaust note

^glancing at girls on their scooties while filling up and some have to glance at the fat/burly/smelly truckie, lol
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Old 5th July 2010, 22:44   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PlatzdaTurbo View Post
i would most definitely buy a diesel irrespective of the prices. Have been fortunate enough to own a diesel monster ( a4 3.0 tdi )
For a 30L car an additional 1 or 2L does not make much of a difference. Not so with a buyer with a 5-10L budget. Imagine paying 10-20% more for an extra bit of mileage and the notional thrill from turbo lag. Let's be more realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shankaranand View Post
The argument of price difference of 1Lakh should not be alone be used for choosing a petrol car.
You have reclaimed the 1 lakh premium paid when you sell your car. So where is the question of cost of recovery here??

Add to this the low running cost you have enjoyed over the years.

Going for Diesel makes lot of sense.

Shankar
Diesels enjoy higher resale values only because of lower running costs. Once that is nullified, nobody will be willing to pay a high price just because the initial cost price was higher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goandude View Post
the turbo boost from the diesel VDI gives me a rush that no petrol ever had.
This thing called turbo boost is more of a handicap than an advantage. I drove my firend's Elantra CRDI for some time in the past. It was plainly irritating. Whenever I want to overtake something, the car doesn't move. After a few seconds of suffering and when you are about to give up, comes that thing called turbo boost. But by then, it would be too late. One might argue that you have to keep the revvs above around 2500rpm. But then, it narrows your power band even further, as the diesel engine looses steam at around 4000rpm. Seriously who would want to buy a car with a 2500-4000rpm power band?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
^ The price difference would still be there - new Diesels are still costlier, ain't they?!!
Diesel cars are expensive not just because they are "priced" higher by the car companies. They are much more expensive to produce. Otherwise in such a competitive market, at least some manufacturers would have decided to price its diesel cars in par with petrol cars.

Indians buy diesels for economy, all other arguments are plain denials.
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Old 5th July 2010, 22:45   #156
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Diesel fractionates at an earlier stage compared to petrol in the refining process of crude oil in refineries. So the production cost is always lesser than petrol.
And given the populist sentiments linked to mass transportation and the link of diesel prices to the inflation and wholesale price index so closely, maybe the government will have to think many a time before making diesel prices market driven.
Diesel engines are much more efficient than the petrol ones and the combustion efficiency ensures greater utilisation of the fuel. Hence diesel engines give a better mileage than the petrol ones.Of course MPFI technology has changed petrol engines but still diesel is more efficient as a fuel in diesel engines.
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Old 5th July 2010, 23:27   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goandude View Post
the turbo boost from the diesel VDI gives me a rush that no petrol ever had.
Take a battered, albeit running GTX for a ride and you will never think about the rush from the VDI ever again. I bought a CRUZE after selling of my Palio GTX. I still rue the day I sold the GTX. The rush the GTX/S10 gives you from 1500rpm to 6500rpm is mind boggling especially in 3rd gear though I have done it only a few times as I did not have the courage to cross 120kmph on congested Kerala roads with average brakes. The Cruze accelerates quicker no doubt but the power band is from 1280rpm to about 3800rpm only and that plays spoil sport when driving aimlessly on a lazy Sunday morning.
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Old 5th July 2010, 23:35   #158
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Why do people always think of diesel cars just as a means to cut operational costs and break even in 3-4 yrs. Diesel cars are about power, and with the modern engines today, power + driveability. Simply superb .

Even for petrol, we all pay more price for more power within same car types, right? Why not same argument for Diesel? cost advantage is extra !

Sure, if you want to be more realistic, then Nano aint a bad choice by far

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
For a 30L car an additional 1 or 2L does not make much of a difference. Not so with a buyer with a 5-10L budget. Imagine paying 10-20% more for an extra bit of mileage and the notional thrill from turbo lag. Let's be more realistic.



Diesels enjoy higher resale values only because of lower running costs. Once that is nullified, nobody will be willing to pay a high price just because the initial cost price was higher.

Second hand diesels always demand more maintenance than new one, which nullifies cost advantage to some extent. Still they go for higher prices because they are more powerful and to an extent, more durable


This thing called turbo boost is more of a handicap than an advantage. I drove my firend's Elantra CRDI for some time in the past. It was plainly irritating. Whenever I want to overtake something, the car doesn't move. After a few seconds of suffering and when you are about to give up, comes that thing called turbo boost. But by then, it would be too late. One might argue that you have to keep the revvs above around 2500rpm. But then, it narrows your power band even further, as the diesel engine looses steam at around 4000rpm. Seriously who would want to buy a car with a 2500-4000rpm power band?

You need to learn to drive in the power band. One can touch 3-figures in the power band only. Realistically, how many times you would go beyond 3 fig in city driving. For highway, turbo charged diesel is beyond doubt a better performer.


Diesel cars are expensive not just because they are "priced" higher by the car companies. They are much more expensive to produce. Otherwise in such a competitive market, at least some manufacturers would have decided to price its diesel cars in par with petrol cars.


Indians buy diesels for economy, all other arguments are plain denials.
Economically, petrol makes more sense, as it takes 3-4, sometime 5 yrs to break even on the upfront payment. After such a long time, resale value hardly matters and would have a variance of about 10-15k or so. So if you are planning to sell before that, petrol makes sense. If you plan to keep it beyond that, then lot of factors, including maintenance costs come into picture. Sure, you may blame Indians for being narrow sighted for just looking at the fuel bills, and not the cost of ownership
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Old 6th July 2010, 09:58   #159
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Modern diesels are efficient. Moreover, even after the deregulation of diesel prices, it wont cost as much as petrol. The government is just contemplating diesel deregulation now. I don't think they will go ahead and do it as there will be immense pressure from industries and truck operators not to do it. Rise in inflation is another factor which will regulate the deregulationists. So, from the daily running costs point of view, diesels fare better.
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Old 6th July 2010, 10:06   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseling View Post
Why do people always think of diesel cars just as a means to cut operational costs and break even in 3-4 yrs. Diesel cars are about power, and with the modern engines today, power + driveability. Simply superb .

Even for petrol, we all pay more price for more power within same car types, right? Why not same argument for Diesel? cost advantage is extra !
That diesel cars are more powerful, is a misconception. If you compare the NA versions of diesel and petrol engines of the same capacity, the diesel makes way less power and torque (yes, torque too) than petrol engines.
(Ex: Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0 LXd vs Skoda Octavia Rider 2.0 MPI vs Opel Corsa 1.4 GSi vs Tata Indica V2 DLE-BS III | Car Comparisons - CarWale.com)
Same with the case of turbocharged engines. What manufacturers used to do earlier was, in diesel cars, they used to plonk bigger engines to compensate the power/torque deficit. For ex: 1.5L vs 2L in Lancer, 1.3 vs 1.8 in ikon, 1.2 vs 1.9 in Palio etc. That, jacked up the prices of diesel cars. But later, they went for the much more economical route of turbocharging. That is why, more often than not, we find turbocharged diesels than petrols.

Add to that, the excise duty cut for small cars. While the govt decided that 1.2 is small for diesel, they thought that 1.5 is small enough for diesels. That is the reason why you don't find many good, powerful petrols on hatchbacks.

Currently since there is a running cost advantage for diesels, more people are leaning towards that, and the that is the reason why manufacturers are focussing more on diesels than before. Once that advantage is nullified, people will move towards petrol. After all, how long would somebody continue to suffer behind those boring, noisy diesel cars?
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Old 6th July 2010, 10:06   #161
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most of the guys here complaining about the turbo lag in diesel cars have experienced cars like verna, cruze & the likes. these cars have been known to have a huge turbo lag. i can add countless numbers of petrol engines which have a terrible low end power.

when we are talking about palio 1.6, skoda 1.8 & others in petrols, talk about the good diesel engines too. i feel one of the good diesel engines available today below 15L is the mHawk in scorpio. absolutely nil turbo lag, instant acceleration, an enthusiastic performer & putting many petrols to shame... inspite of being twice as heavy as other sedans & hatchbacks, it beats them cleanly, whether its driveability or 0-100kmph. bonus is the superior fuel efficiency.

and why are we talking about the smell of the fuel here? what have we got to do with it??? does someone have a leaking fuel line/tank in his car that he gets to smell the fuel inside his car everytime?
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Old 6th July 2010, 13:04   #162
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Default Diesel taxed higher to cover up subsidy

I understand that Diesel cars are taxed higher by GoI coz Diesel is subsidized by the Govt, based on some lifetime consumption of a Diesel passenger car. If they are going in for deregulation is fuel prices, they should do the same for the car as well.

This would bring both petrol and diesel cars on a more level playing field for the customer to decide.
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Old 6th July 2010, 14:25   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
That diesel cars are more powerful, is a misconception. If you compare the NA versions of diesel and petrol engines of the same capacity, the diesel makes way less power and torque (yes, torque too) than petrol engines.
(Ex: Mitsubishi Lancer 2.0 LXd vs Skoda Octavia Rider 2.0 MPI vs Opel Corsa 1.4 GSi vs Tata Indica V2 DLE-BS III | Car Comparisons - CarWale.com)
Same with the case of turbocharged engines. What manufacturers used to do earlier was, in diesel cars, they used to plonk bigger engines to compensate the power/torque deficit. For ex: 1.5L vs 2L in Lancer, 1.3 vs 1.8 in ikon, 1.2 vs 1.9 in Palio etc. That, jacked up the prices of diesel cars. But later, they went for the much more economical route of turbocharging. That is why, more often than not, we find turbocharged diesels than petrols.

Add to that, the excise duty cut for small cars. While the govt decided that 1.2 is small for diesel, they thought that 1.5 is small enough for diesels. That is the reason why you don't find many good, powerful petrols on hatchbacks.

Currently since there is a running cost advantage for diesels, more people are leaning towards that, and the that is the reason why manufacturers are focussing more on diesels than before. Once that advantage is nullified, people will move towards petrol. After all, how long would somebody continue to suffer behind those boring, noisy diesel cars?
As rightly pointed out, if you talk about good petrol engines, also talk about good diesel hearts as well, for a fair comparison. It is a personal choice and statements like "After all, how long would somebody continue to suffer behind those boring, noisy diesel cars?" cannot be generalized.

I personally do not find the excitement in 0-10sec when you barely cross 70kmph. The excitement is in effortless sustenance of 100+ speeds on a long highway that I doubt a petrol will give. Your argument is like telling Paulo Coelho to write 11secs instead of 11 mins
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Old 6th July 2010, 14:50   #164
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Price same or not, any diesel engine with the same, or even marginally larger displacement will any day give more mileage than a similiar spec petrol engine. This is not a characteristic of engine design, but rather the characterictic of the fuel as diesel has more energy content that petrol. This alone should be the single biggest reason for purchasing a diesel vehicle if fuel cost is the main issue, regardless of whether the price of diesel becomes equal to petrol or not.

But yes,turbo or not, diesel engine will never have the same top end performance of a gasoline engine, mainly because they red line early due to an inherent heavier construction to take care of the higher compression ratio and temperature for combustion of diesel, which again brings us back to the point that it is in fact due the charateristic of the fuel that defines the engine design/performance and not otherwise.

Petrol engines are particullarly revvy and smooth, because it is so easy to ignite petrol. Diesel on the other hand has to be given common-rail treatment to behave politely.Even then, sights of premum diesel SUVS emitting black smoke in cold conditions, engine clatter, air locking, etc are minor gremlins that any diesel owner has learnt to live with, and at best ignore.Performace of diesel engines in extremely hot or extreme cold conditions is not something to write home about. The Indian Army heavily relies on the humble Gypsy not for nothing. They wont want to get stuck in a heavy diesel SUV (fortuner?pajero?cayenne?) on a mountain top when enemies are raining bullets on them.

So the question is not whether the initial price, fuel price or higher/lower running cost , that should determine the answer. Rather its about what the car buyer wants his/her driving experience to be? Diesels may be on top right now with direct injection CRD tech, variable geometry turbo, intercoolers, and what not, but with hybrid technology making advances in recent years, the next round might just belong to petrol.
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Old 6th July 2010, 15:02   #165
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Firstly GOI will not deregulate diesel prices overnight as it would be practically impossible considering how used to this subsidy our businesses have become.
Once deregulated, diesel cost is likely to sit somewhat between 2-5 rs cheaper than petrol.
Considering petrol engines have an inbuilt advantage (for smaller vehicles like passenger cars), they are less noisy and have lesser vibrations manufactures will start pushing Petrol engines which are less complicated to manufacture.Mainly due the fact the huge cost advantage will be lost.
Other things like torque, BHP, lag etc.. which has been mentioned purely depends on the engine design.
And I believe by the time our govt. decides on deregulating diesel prices it would become insignificant as it is decades away and we will have neither one left on this planet .
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