Go Back   Team-BHP > BHP India > The Indian Car Scene


View Poll Results: Would you still buy a Diesel car?
Yes 527 45.16%
No 551 47.22%
Don't Know 89 7.63%
Voters: 1167. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 6th July 2010, 15:29   #166
Distinguished - BHPian
 
hemanth.anand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Bengaluru
Posts: 2,159
Thanked: 5,949 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
For a 30L car an additional 1 or 2L does not make much of a difference. Not so with a buyer with a 5-10L budget. Imagine paying 10-20% more for an extra bit of mileage and the notional thrill from turbo lag. Let's be more realistic.
Indians buy diesels for economy, all other arguments are plain denials.
+1 to that, for an average Indian car buyer (below 10 Lac category), The initial investment is a big consideration in buying a car and if and when the diesel and petrol rates come close to each other, more and more people would definitely go for the petrol car. I feel that the percentage of diesel cars will stay higher in the 10Lac+ category coz in that segment fuel cost and the mileage is a very small consideration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitartha View Post
So the question is not whether the initial price, fuel price or higher/lower running cost , that should determine the answer. Rather its about what the car buyer wants his/her driving experience to be? Diesels may be on top right now with direct injection CRD tech, variable geometry turbo, intercoolers, and what not, but with hybrid technology making advances in recent years, the next round might just belong to petrol.
I completely agree with this.If and when the prices of both the fuels come closer, The wheels of time would have turned and petrols will reign.
"Every dog has its day"

Quote:
Originally Posted by raghavanrv View Post
And I believe by the time our govt. decides on deregulating diesel prices it would become insignificant as it is decades away and we will have neither one left on this planet .
This is what I call "Out of the box thinking".good one raghavanrv.
And by that time we may be using bio-fuels, hydrogen fuel cells, or some other thing.
hemanth.anand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 16:53   #167
Senior - BHPian
 
sbraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: B L R / T V M
Posts: 1,071
Thanked: 4 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseling View Post
The excitement is in effortless sustenance of 100+ speeds on a long highway that I doubt a petrol will give.
Oh!!!

Which is the specific petrol car you are talking about? And how long was that highway?
sbraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 17:18   #168
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: kolkata
Posts: 273
Thanked: 82 Times
Default Is it all in the turbo

Interesting thread here.However, going by most of the replies given by the diesel fans here, it is the turbo that lends that zing to driving the diesel car in question.Surely nothing can compare to that sudden thrust provided by the turbo in a diesel right?Coz we're all suckers for that mad power rush when the turbo spools up.

May I then suggest a perfect combination of the revv happy nature of a petrol and the mad rush of the turbo..a turbo petrol!!

So, to put my answer in short..I'll always be a petrolhead as long as cars like the Octavia vRS/Laura TSi are around.Nothing and I mean nothing comes close to it as far as fun to drive factor is concerned.

Im already lucky to drive one.

However, if economics comes into the equation, then I'm afraid diesels still rule the roost.Not for long though, if prices are to de-regulated.

Last edited by octane1002 : 6th July 2010 at 17:24.
octane1002 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 17:44   #169
BHPian
 
sam_sant2005's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 457
Thanked: 151 Times
Default

From multiple sources I have learnt that for Swift Diesel (or for that matter any high torque Diesel engine) there's no much drop in mileage even if we put a/c. Though for the Petrol version, a/c does eat up a great portion of ur precious fuel.

What have you guys seen over the years? Will Turbo petrol be any different? what has been happening in octavia vrs?

The evidence to substantiate that (to me) is that most Swift xDi owners have their windows rolled up (in fact Iam yet to see one down in Cochin), and most xXi owners have their windows down :P
sam_sant2005 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 18:51   #170
BHPian
 
samsan02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 404
Thanked: 17 Times
Default

I have voted for No. And this is my opinion.

Now coming to the diesel vs petrol debate, all these years diesel cars were popular solely because of money saved at every refill at the gas pump rather than the other stuff like turbo, torquey, CRDi, etc. Since diesel is subsidised more it made perfect financial sense for people to save money at every fill.At the same time Greedy Car manufacturers would charge a hefty surplus for a diesel car because of the demand and also because of cost of complex diesel engines. Ideally govt. should have
charged that upfront tax (as per kirit parikh recommendation) on these pvt diesel car buyers to maintain that equilibrium and still provide diesel at subsidised rates for country's economy to function, Which they never did. Now when the demand for vehicles is so much more how can they continue subsidies on fuel, Obviously not. So when they do deregularize diesel, common man will be the most hit with inflation.

Now after dregularisation of diesel would it make sense to buy a diesel car anymore, I don't think so. If the car manufacturer honestly claims that for R&D on diesel engines, CRDi, turbo etc. there will be an addtional cost of 80k to 1L minus all the greed part they have been charging all these years then I doubt if anyone will still buy a diesel car. Because with the price difference between petrol and diesel getting narrower and almost equal, why would anyone spend an extra 90k just to gain a better fuel efficiency. If the greed component charged by car manufacturers is zero and the benefit passed on to consumers where the cost between a petrol or a diesel car is about 30 to 40k then it may to some extent be still in favour of a diesel car buyers. But this will become clearer once diesel is deregularised and the actual price is known on the roads. The biggest hit will be the resale of a diesel car which is bound to suffer as demand would reduce. And even people wouldn't just buy a new car solely because of resale value anymore.

We know our country very well, all these policy changes and fuel price deregularisation has been there since ages and finally they decided to do something about it. I feel that when crude was at $140 Govt. or rather the UPA govt. didn't increase prices drastically. So they can't be blamed enitirely for the price hikes now. If in future NDA govt comes over I am sure just to please people they may reduce prices and regulate fuel again or may continue with deregularisation. But bottomline is its just an eye wash, look at excise duty, state taxes on petrol and diesel, why are they so high. Thats where the problem is. Almost double in taxes alone is not justified, Don't we pay road tax in states then why again a separate state tax, which should be nominal IMHO. Fuel is a necessity and not a comfort. Do we pay some state tax, excise duty for food that we buy. Obviously they can't give first few liters of fuel at a subsidised price just like ration card, and its impossible to implement.But alternatively they would have given a common man an increase on the conveyance exemption from Rs.800 a month to something reasonable, Rs.800 a month is a joke I
wonder since how many years its been like that.

But reality is reality lets face it, fuel prices can no longer be controlled by our govt. as it is a global thing now. That way let better sense prevail and everyone drives sensiblily and avoid short trips or wasteful driving, use bicycles for small errands, car pooling, opt for hybrid cars etc.

Last edited by samsan02 : 6th July 2010 at 18:53.
samsan02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 22:12   #171
Senior - BHPian
 
ph03n!x's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Madras
Posts: 1,705
Thanked: 118 Times
Default

Hmmm.. this thread is growing into a full-blown Petrol vs Diesel war!! Let me summarize all we have said here (and add a few of my own):
  • Petrols are revv happy, and have that addictive growl - esp if FFE'd
  • Petrols engines are simple, less complicated and comparatively less prone to failure by design (No high pressure common rail or fuel pump, turbo, etc)
  • Petrol fuel is more combustible than Diesel - the chances of a Diesel car catching fire is lower. But if it did, Diesel will burn stronger and longer
  • The Noise, Vibration and Harshness of a Petrol Engine is much much superior than Diesels owing to the nature of the fuel, and engine designed for the fuel
  • Most consider the smell of Diesel as pungent, while some find the smell of Petrol addictive (and some even take it a step further )
  • I have seen Petrol cars that seem to run for ever (saw an old, battered Toyoto Corolla taxi in Philippines with 800,000+ on the clock, going strong), not sure if a modern CRDi Diesel will stand such abuses without burning a hole for maintenance
  • Petrol variants of a model are priced up to a lakh or so lesser than Diesel in India
  • Diesel cars are sluggish, and even turbo-charged Diesels have a painful turbo lag if not kept in the power-band
  • Diesel cars are more fuel efficient than their petrol counterparts - no matter how hard or soft they are driven
  • By design, Diesels are invariably heavier than similar spec'ed Petrols, and hence are more torquey
  • Petrol engines typically have a gradually rising power curve over a wide RPM range, while a Diesel will have a flat-er power curve over a narrow RPM range
  • Most modern Diesels come with CRDi and a turbo - hence the turbo rush et all
  • It takes considerable change in driving style for a Petrol-head to get used to a Diesel car. A petrol will instantly move when floored, they have a wider power band. But not a Diesel, unless kept within the power band (around 2000 RPM for most modern Diesels). They will shoot like a rocket if you got it right - Torque Steer ahoy!!
  • The fun of driving a Petrol at 6000 or 7000 RPM will not be there in a Diesel, most Diesel engines redline before 5000 RPM
  • The capability to chug along at 1500 to 2000 RPM all day in traffic without gear shifts like a Diesel is absent in Petrol owing to the torquey nature of the Diesel engine
  • The Diesel power-band is pretty narrow - and that, in a way, adds to the fun! You can get more done within a shorter revv range, which gives it the rush.
  • The day turbo-petrols become the mainstream in hatches and entry level sedans seem pretty far off (I hope some emission norm or other brings that change, like it brought in CRDi + xGT!)
  • The day manufacturers price Petrol and Diesel variants of a similarly spec'ed model at the same price-point seem far off
  • Diesel cars will still cost marginally higher to make and will be sold at a heftier premium
  • Most buyers, esp in the <10L segment, opt for a loan - and when that additional one lakh is EMI'ed, it does not make a HUGE dent on the wallet
  • Diesel fuel in India is taxed lesser than Petrol
  • The day Diesel and Petrol come for the same bucks-per-liter may be far off considering Diesel drives the economy
  • Even if Diesel is deregulated, Petrol will still be taxed more than Diesel
  • The Indian Army depends on Petrol driven Gypsy's at high altitube, freezing places - The UN depends on Diesel driven Toyota Land Cruisers across crazy terrains. Both have their limitations and are highly capable in their applications

I don't know if I covered all the salients points, + and - of both sides. If I haven't please feel free to add.

If the bright side of the Petrols appeal more than that of Diesels to you, vote No
If the bright side of the Diesels appeal more than that of Petrols to you, vote Yes
If you are not sure because we do not know if the Diesel cars will cost on par with Petrol, or if Diesel fuel will cost on par with Petrol after de-regularization, vote Don't know

There is no point having a Petrol vs Diesel war, slowly but surely heating up the argument, leading to the thread's closure.

Disclaimer: I voted for Diesels here because
  • I believe Diesels are still worth a buy even if the fuel prices equalizes
  • I believe Diesels are still worth a buy even if the car prices equalizes
  • I believe Diesels would still be more economical (no matter how they are driven)
  • I can live with the NVH / turbo lag of the Diesel
  • I love the high revving nature of Petrols, and will buy a powerful Turbo Petrol hatch as my second car if and when I can get my hands on one
ph03n!x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 23:28   #172
SLK
Senior - BHPian
 
SLK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: DL XX XX XXXX
Posts: 1,290
Thanked: 185 Times
Default

Great summary. I was myself starting to wonder, where this thread is leading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
  • It takes considerable change in driving style for a Petrol-head to get used to a Diesel car. A petrol will instantly move when floored, they have a wider power band. But not a Diesel, unless kept within the power band (around 2000 RPM for most modern Diesels). They will shoot like a rocket if you got it right - Torque Steer ahoy!!
That is a million$$ point, The driving style for both petrol and diesels are different, and different people might prefer different styles.

Once used to one of these styles, the other seems lame!

One should not try to judge diesel with a few 100kms of drive, drive it for 5k kms, then you are on a level field to compare it with petrol.
SLK is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2010, 23:43   #173
Distinguished - BHPian
 
FlyingSpur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 3,937
Thanked: 1,331 Times
Default

I just got into this thread. Let me put forth my POV.

The i20 or the Corolla, obviously not, the ones I own are both petrols and suit their application well.

BUT the Beemer? Now THIS one I'd still prefer with a diesel heart. Several reasons why :

One. Plain and simple truck diesel goes into it. No hassle of finding it anywhere in the country, just has to be from a reputed bunk to ensure it's pure and not adulterated. Try to find high octane petrol everywhere.

Two. The D's are still significantly more fuel efficient than the P's atleast in our driving conditions. CGI / TSI and all that might work very well abroad, and in some cases in our conditions when the driving environment is mixed, but overall diesel most definitely has the edge in FE.

Three. The TORRRRRRRRRQQQQQUE !!! I've said this before and I'm going to say it again, I found the 330i we tested, quite boring to drive compared to our 320d.

The three main points in favour of German diesels over petrols. I'm NOT considering resale value here because I strongly believe that figure is but a function of point no.2 mentioned by me above.
FlyingSpur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2010, 10:58   #174
BHPian
 
mtnrajdeep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 648
Thanked: 88 Times
Default

Even I voted for the diesels! The diesels are more fuel efficient and will always give more mileage than the petrols!
mtnrajdeep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2010, 11:24   #175
Senior - BHPian
 
sbraj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: B L R / T V M
Posts: 1,071
Thanked: 4 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ph03n!x View Post
this thread is growing into a full-blown Petrol vs Diesel war!!
...

There is no point having a Petrol vs Diesel war, slowly but surely heating up the argument, leading to the thread's closure.
Agree with you. Also on most of the summary. (p.s. You missed the air pollution angle in the summary.)

Many of the considerations are subjective (like smell, noise, torque-influenced driving style etc). Some may like it while some may not.

The prospective buyer has to look at his usage, budget, preferences and take that decision. To each his own.
sbraj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2010, 18:40   #176
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Faridabad, Haryana
Posts: 7
Thanked: 0 Times
Default

Layman's 2 cents...
I had never driven a diesel for the 10 odd years that I have managed to get myself behind the wheel. Then I drove a petrol SUV in the US for 2 years. Came back to India and bought a Scorpio 2.2 Mhawk.
- I knew I would have trouble with a bulky vehicle like that in Delhi traffic. The car proved otherwise.
- I knew that diesels are sluggish and you make all kinds of compromises like shutting down the AC before you pick up etc. etc.. The Car proved otherwise
- Maintenance in a diesel is more expensive. Dont think so...the Altis (12 lacs) asks for INR 3-4k each time and so does the Scorpio (10 lacs). Whats the big deal there?

Does the a big diesel vehicle on India roads do any favours for your spinal column. You bet it does

In smaller cars like the Swift or Getz it saves you money.

I vote for Diesel....I'm converted
vikkal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2010, 19:24   #177
Senior - BHPian
 
ku69rd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 2,293
Thanked: 1,226 Times
Default

This thread has been very narrative on the benefits of both fuels, Diesel & Petrol. I have voted for Diesel because of simple reason, The torque is very addictive, many of us know the Bangalore traffic, driving it within city is a dream, you just need to slot it in the right gear and chug along. Highways have been very comfortable and engine ticks over at a lazy 2000 Rpm when doing respectable speeds of 100 to 120 KPH. Pretty sure many might question if the speeds of 100 to 120 are respectable. Yes I have a Swift Diesel and miss the heady days of my Zen which was all modded up with exhaust. My heart still goes for a petrol engine with all the show and pomp, but mind clearly says its the Diesel which is a better bet.
Modern India is not just about economy, people do care about performance.
Would say its diesel if you are looking for a relaxed drive in the city with the mile devouring skills on highway, Petrol if you look for refined drive.

PS: Audi R15 TDI did a 1-2-3 at Le Mans 2010. Would we need more verdict here.
Audi Worldwide > news > Pool > Audi achieves record victory at Le Mans with new technology
ku69rd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 11:59   #178
Senior - BHPian
 
Chethan B G's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Bangalore
Posts: 1,419
Thanked: 693 Times
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by gitartha View Post
Price same or not, any diesel engine with the same, or even marginally larger displacement will any day give more mileage than a similiar spec petrol engine. This is not a characteristic of engine design, but rather the characterictic of the fuel as diesel has more energy content that petrol. This alone should be the single biggest reason for purchasing a diesel vehicle if fuel cost is the main issue, regardless of whether the price of diesel becomes equal to petrol or not.

But yes,turbo or not, diesel engine will never have the same top end performance of a gasoline engine, mainly because they red line early due to an inherent heavier construction to take care of the higher compression ratio and temperature for combustion of diesel, which again brings us back to the point that it is in fact due the charateristic of the fuel that defines the engine design/performance and not otherwise.

Petrol engines are particullarly revvy and smooth, because it is so easy to ignite petrol. Diesel on the other hand has to be given common-rail treatment to behave politely.Even then, sights of premum diesel SUVS emitting black smoke in cold conditions, engine clatter, air locking, etc are minor gremlins that any diesel owner has learnt to live with, and at best ignore.Performace of diesel engines in extremely hot or extreme cold conditions is not something to write home about. The Indian Army heavily relies on the humble Gypsy not for nothing. They wont want to get stuck in a heavy diesel SUV (fortuner?pajero?cayenne?) on a mountain top when enemies are raining bullets on them.

So the question is not whether the initial price, fuel price or higher/lower running cost , that should determine the answer. Rather its about what the car buyer wants his/her driving experience to be? Diesels may be on top right now with direct injection CRD tech, variable geometry turbo, intercoolers, and what not, but with hybrid technology making advances in recent years, the next round might just belong to petrol.
IMHO, Until Turbo Charged Petrol engines become the rule of the day, Diesel will have it's charm. Any idea about the TurboLag in Petrol Tsi Engines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raghavanrv View Post
Firstly GOI will not deregulate diesel prices overnight as it would be practically impossible considering how used to this subsidy our businesses have become.
Once deregulated, diesel cost is likely to sit somewhat between 2-5 rs cheaper than petrol.
Considering petrol engines have an inbuilt advantage (for smaller vehicles like passenger cars), they are less noisy and have lesser vibrations manufactures will start pushing Petrol engines which are less complicated to manufacture.Mainly due the fact the huge cost advantage will be lost.
Other things like torque, BHP, lag etc.. which has been mentioned purely depends on the engine design.
And I believe by the time our govt. decides on deregulating diesel prices it would become insignificant as it is decades away and we will have neither one left on this planet .
In the distractive distillation of Crude oil - Petrol comes out first as a derivative. After that, Diesel is derived. This is because of their respective boiling points. More than 50% of the total derivatives, will be Petrol. Diesel will about 30%.

If the subsidy is removed, and if the tax structure is the same for both the bi-products, Petrol should become logically cheaper.

But, to remove subsidy for Diesel is not so easy IMHO.
Chethan B G is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 14:33   #179
BHPian
 
lalitk25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria Germany
Posts: 190
Thanked: 8 Times
Default

IMHO a diesel hatch for daily office commute and a Petrol Sedan for family functiones, gathering and highway trips.
In available options I would go for Swit Vdi and Civic a perfect combination for me at least. I think diesel hatches will continue to sell even after price derag. because of their fuel economy (Consideting the Fiat's engine is not expensive to maintain) cant say same about diesel sedans (10+ segment)
lalitk25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th July 2010, 16:12   #180
Distinguished - BHPian
 
FlyingSpur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
Posts: 3,937
Thanked: 1,331 Times
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chethan B G View Post
IMHO, Until Turbo Charged Petrol engines become the rule of the day, Diesel will have it's charm. Any idea about the TurboLag in Petrol Tsi Engines?
Apparently it is not as bad as turbo lag in a diesel.

Quote:
But, to remove subsidy for Diesel is not so easy IMHO.
True, if completely removed it will drastically affect transportation costs, which will push the prices of everything up... and inflation is a problem as it is. Deregulation is a necessary evil.
FlyingSpur is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Taman Negara - Getting Closer to Mother Nature advaitlele Travelogues 23 2nd March 2010 22:10
Objects in the mirror are closer than they appear. Why? beejay Technical Stuff 28 4th November 2009 14:30
if you were to buy, which one would you pick _Crazi4Speed_ The International Automotive Scene 4 3rd March 2004 06:41


All times are GMT +5.5. The time now is 03:27.

Copyright 2000 - 2017, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks