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View Poll Results: Would you still buy a Diesel car?
Yes 527 45.16%
No 551 47.22%
Don't Know 89 7.63%
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Old 9th September 2010, 16:51   #226
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
Then I wonder why people complain about turbo lag, and recommend to keep the rpm above 2000.
Turbo means that the diesel pickup is faster while in the turbo range, whereas the pickup in a petrol car is more smooth or linear. But though the pickup of the diesel is the best while in the turbo range, the engine tends to be more tractable and can handle the range of city speeds with less gear changes.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
OK, look at the Palio 1.2 and Palio D. The 1.2 ELX used to sell for 4.5L while the D ELX used to sell for 5.5L (1L difference). Today, a used 1.2 ELX in Bangalore is available for around 1L, while the diesel will fetch you a maximum of 2L. The difference of 1L is huge, but consider this: You spent 1L more buying the diesel. Now add the interest for 5 years.

People who think that buying a diesel car makes better economic sense actually got it wrong. Well, unless he is a fleet operator.
You forget that the 1 lakh would have been easily recovered in the fuel savings alone, so the 1 lakh extra in re-sale value is a bonus. For example, say for a 5-year loan the EMI on a diesel is 2000 Rs higher, and your fuel bill with Petrol comes to 6000 whereas with diesel it comes to 4000, your monthly spend is the same when you consider the running costs (insurance, maintenance etc are factors but wont change it drastically). So basically you might not appear to be saving money on the diesel but the fact is that on diesel you are investing in your car from which you can at least get some money back from the resale price whereas with the petrol car you are basically burning extra fuel that will only pay off government, oil companies, and maybe Saudi Arabia
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Old 9th September 2010, 19:42   #227
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Originally Posted by rajushank84 View Post
Diesel car requiring less gear shifts is not a myth. All you need is third gear in most of the speeds, in normal city driving, where you would require 2nd, 3rd and 4th in a petrol.
I'd like to believe you, but tell me how that happens. There should be a proof behind it, and I am not able to see it. If an engine has a narrow power band how does it not need constant gear shifts? In a large diesel engine, like that you have in the Palio D, this argument might hold true to some extend. The 1.9D engine pulls even at 1000rpm, so you almost never have to shift down. Not true with new age low capacity diesels (1.2, 1.3 etc), that relies on a turbocharger to produce some decent torque.

Quote:
Resale value of the diesel depends on the model, but generally it is not a myth because a used diesel car is an attractive option for taxi operators.
Wrong. For cars with high resale values, it makes better sense for taxi operators to buy new, rather than buy a used car at 80% of the price.
Quote:
I don't think diesel is going to equal petrol price anytime soon. If diesel is deregulated, the public sector will see huge a upshift in transport costs, and of course the way to make up for it would be to tax petrol users even more. Just a guess.
What I think (and hope to see) is, there soon would be a "diesel-subsidy-tax" on diesel cars, as they are using a subsidized fuel to run luxury cars.
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If I see a day when petrol and diesel costs the same in India, I would be really surprised. Because there are too many stakeholders in keeping diesel price lower.
Agree.
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Old 10th September 2010, 07:40   #228
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Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I'd like to believe you, but tell me how that happens. There should be a proof behind it, and I am not able to see it. If an engine has a narrow power band how does it not need constant gear shifts? In a large diesel engine, like that you have in the Palio D, this argument might hold true to some extend. The 1.9D engine pulls even at 1000rpm, so you almost never have to shift down. Not true with new age low capacity diesels (1.2, 1.3 etc), that relies on a turbocharger to produce some decent torque.
I have a Innova diesel and a Swift petrol. Will try to explain why I got this idea that diesels need less shifting.
Most of my gear shifts happen in the city when I have to slow down due to traffic to speeds about 20-25 kms/hr and then move back again to around 50-60. In my innova diesel this can be covered all in 3rd gear without changing. Also it can start off in 2nd gear and go upto 30kms/hr wihtout engine getting too harsh, this really helps in stop and go traffic. When I quickly need to overtake someone even in 5th gear I just need to press the accelerator gently and it responds to instant increase in speed (this is not at near it rev limit as I never reach those levels).
In my swift one cannot start off in 1st gear and stop go traffic requires higher revs to be maintained to avoid stalling. Also 3rd gear cannot take the range of usual speed ranges. Increasing speed in 5th gear takes ages.

The key thing is most people dont need even the narrow powerband that a diesel offers in the city, and in that 'narrower' required band it works better than petrol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I checked the prices in UK. Diesel cars there are definitely more expensive than petrols. Think about it this way, for the same cc, a naturally aspirated diesel would make lesser power than a naturally aspirated petrol. So they have to add a turbocharger and other stuff to bring it in par with the petrols, and that costs money. So, no day the price of a diesel engine is going to come down to be par with petrol.
Am no way suggesting they will be same. As you mentioned the different components used will result in different prices. What I meant was that price difference will come down from the levels they are at now.

Note from the Team-BHP Support Team : Please use "Multi Quote" option for quoting Multiple posts, instead of creating another back-to-back post.

Last edited by .anshuman : 5th October 2010 at 12:16. Reason: Please take a look at the mod note that has been added to the end of your post.
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Old 5th October 2010, 10:20   #229
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Lightbulb Petrol vs. Diesel

Dear Expert BHPians,

I have written a calculator which helps users in making a choice between a petrol and a diesel variant of a car. It includes calculations for people planning to pay upfront for the car, people interested in a lower monthly outgo rather than the total TCO, etc. Further it also plays up a scenario where a person may use a loan to buy the car with the target of owning the car for say not more than 3 yrs.

I request everyone's feedback on the calculator and other areas which can be added to calculation to make it more wholistic and effective.

Thanks,
Mayank
Attached Files
File Type: xlsx PetrolVsDiesel.xlsx (14.4 KB, 2048 views)

Last edited by Jaggu : 5th October 2010 at 10:36. Reason: Please use Search before opening a new thread, ongoing discussion. Thanks
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Old 5th October 2010, 11:48   #230
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Originally Posted by mak10 View Post
I request everyone's feedback on the calculator and other areas which can be added to calculation to make it more wholistic and effective.
Please can you upload a XLS document because not everyone uses Office 2010, or the compatibility pack. Thanks...
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Old 5th October 2010, 12:03   #231
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I like Diesel vehicles - especially the new gen ones because in terms of performance they are pretty good plus Diesel is a cleaner burning fuel overall.

I know that my decision to stick with Diesel has so far been economics led. But I think I have become quite the convert, on account of my Crde Scorp's smooth linear power delivery and the diesel engine's inherent torquey-ness.

All going well I would like now and in future to remain with SUV type vehicles for all my general vehicular needs - daily drive as well as long distance adventure/golfing trips etc. Typically I believe in having one vehicle which is an all rounder.
I think I will stick with Diesel also because since these vehicles in general are quite heavy. Their diesel engines inherent torquey-ness should help pull one out of most miseries that one may encounter on and off the road. the said torquey-ness also helps immensely in my chug-along daily commute on traffic infested city roads.

i wont deny that somewhere at the back of my mind is a sort of comfort factor that as long as there is a powerful trucking lobby and transport lobby in India, the prices of Diesel and Petrol may narrow in the gap between them but still wont quite be able to meet - atleast in the near and foreseeable future.
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Old 5th October 2010, 18:18   #232
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Adding the xls version as well.
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File Type: xls PetrolVsDiesel.xls (34.0 KB, 333 views)
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Old 5th October 2010, 18:44   #233
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Initially I favoured diesel as it was cheaper to run, as with Ambassador with either BMC or Trekker engines. Though maintenance was needed, it still made the vehicle cheaper to use.

Except for the initial high cost, it is even cheaper to run and maintain the latest diesel vehicles.

Driving pleasure too is high on latest diesel vehicles.
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Old 16th December 2010, 15:49   #234
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Just paid Rs. 62.89/litre of petrol in Bangalore, with this nth hike in petrol prices after de-regulation in less than 5 months. It seems the govt is going to bleed the petrol users more than doing anything about dergulating diesel at the same time without affecting inflation. Strictly even diesel for private use should have been taxed, else every new car buyer would choose a diesel car from now on as there is no clarity if the govt will ever de-regulate diesel ever in India.
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Old 16th December 2010, 16:13   #235
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Best thing is to introduce TSI engines in all vehicle segments. In that case the petrol and diesel will have somewhat same torque charecteristics and will result in better mileage in Petrol cars.
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Old 16th December 2010, 20:51   #236
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by civic-sense View Post
I'd like to believe you, but tell me how that happens. There should be a proof behind it, and I am not able to see it. If an engine has a narrow power band how does it not need constant gear shifts? In a large diesel engine, like that you have in the Palio D, this argument might hold true to some extend. The 1.9D engine pulls even at 1000rpm, so you almost never have to shift down. Not true with new age low capacity diesels (1.2, 1.3 etc), that relies on a turbocharger to produce some decent torque.


Wrong. For cars with high resale values, it makes better sense for taxi operators to buy new, rather than buy a used car at 80% of the price.

What I think (and hope to see) is, there soon would be a "diesel-subsidy-tax" on diesel cars, as they are using a subsidized fuel to run luxury cars.

Agree.
Reg diesel requiring less gear shifts: nothing can "prove" it except driving the cars back to back. Drive Swift diesel & Swift petrol, Figo diesel & petrol, Indica diesel & petrol, in all these models the diesel variant will require less gear shifts than the petrol, in constantly varying speeds. The reason (I think) is: Torque is produced at lower RPMs.

Reg resale value: When I say it will command a good resale value, it doesn't necessarily mean 80%. It is relative to petrol. A new car petrol car that costs 5 lakhs may go for 2 lakhs after 5 years. Its corresponding diesel model costing 6 lakhs, would go for 3 or 3.5 lakhs after the same 5 years. It doesnt mean that the taxi operator will prefer to shell out 6 lakhs and go for a new one. Example: Try selling a used petrol Indica and a used diesel Indica. Try selling a used petrol Fiesta and a used diesel Fiesta.

So in essence, the difference in price gets recovered when the car is sold (again depending on the model, but generally yes - and taxiable models are generally safe in this aspect). So the extra savings in day-to-day running is a bonus.
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Old 16th December 2010, 21:11   #237
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

I'd prefer petrol motor, providing it is something like i-vtec on my Honda Jazz or TSI motor, of the current breed and technology. They are quiter, cleaner, and when the gears are chosen sensibly the need to change them continuosly also reduces correspondingly.

In fact compared to Honda Jazz, I find that at least of now, I there is a greater gear shifting required for Skoda Yeti. This could be partly because I am still getting used to it, and partly because it has a tendency to stall without warning if the RPM drops to less than 1000, in any gear.

One way to get around this issue would be to fit the cars with DSG boxes, which I suspect, will be the future of gears. Who needs the clutch pedal.

The other issue is with the fuel quality. Diesel I suspect is more prone to adultration than petrol. This may be purely my perception.

However, I also understand that diesel has greater calorific value by weight and volume, and therefore tends to deliver better FE.

So if both diesel and petrol were similarly priced, my decision will depend on the kind of technology used, actual driving experience and the price diference for the vehicle - whether petrol or diesel.
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Old 16th December 2010, 21:27   #238
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

My trust in Diesels has been renewed after my recent purchase of Laura CR TDi DSG. It's faster than all the petrol cars in the segment(Except Laura TSi, that too is just 1-2secs faster till 140kph), still easily returns 20kpl+ on highways. The turbo-lag is non existent.
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Old 16th December 2010, 21:31   #239
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

My next car will be a diesel, even if diesel is priced above petrol. I will buy it just for it's superb torque and efficiency. The lower cost of the fuel will be just an icing on the cake.
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Old 16th December 2010, 23:43   #240
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

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Originally Posted by .anshuman View Post
My trust in Diesels has been renewed after my recent purchase of Laura CR TDi DSG. It's faster than all the petrol cars in the segment(Except Laura TSi, that too is just 1-2secs faster till 140kph), still easily returns 20kpl+ on highways. The turbo-lag is non existent.
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My next car will be a diesel, even if diesel is priced above petrol. I will buy it just for it's superb torque and efficiency. The lower cost of the fuel will be just an icing on the cake.
Honestly speaking so has my confidence soared in diesel since I bought Skoda Yeti. On highways I've got more than 22 kpl, and I find that incredible. Also there is hardly engine noise, and after the initial splutter, one could confuse the motor with that of petrol.
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