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View Poll Results: Would you still buy a Diesel car?
Yes 527 45.16%
No 551 47.22%
Don't Know 89 7.63%
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Old 14th May 2011, 23:41   #271
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I wouldn't buy a diesel for two reasons:

1. Can't fit an FFE.
2. An exhaust flame thrower wont work.

Ok.. May be I should grow up!
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Old 15th May 2011, 10:59   #272
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Default Re: Petrol Car vs Diesel Car.

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Originally Posted by vina View Post
(available bhp)/(air drag + tyre friction) with the air drag dominating heavily

In this region petrol beats diesel hands down, but not because of weight alone; diesel is bulky (will increase the frontal area) and in any case doesn't generate high rpm (and more importantly - it doesn't generate torque in a wide rpm range). Of course as anshuman mentioned this may not remain an advantage going forward.

bottomline is for a very large fraction of users, the power/weight ratio, if used appropriately actually favours the diesels.

AFAIK the only application where in power/weight ratio the weight of the engine is significant is fast flying jets - as we all know those use highly inefficient turbine engines - raw bhp is important as well as minimising the weight (fuel laden + engine) is important because higher weight = larger lift surfaces = higher drag and also because engine+fuel makes a big fraction of the overall vehicle weight
Roughly BHP is Torque x RPM. Diesels produce tremendous torque at lower RPM, which gives them an advantage at slow speeds. If you can get more gears at the top end - say 2 or 3 overdrive ratios instead of 1, then the diesels will perform quite well at high speeds also. Just look at the BMW 3 series diesel performance. Over the same CC, the diesels are competitive or better than the petrols. Of course the diesels have turbos, so you may say that a petrol turbo will be better, but then you loose the advantage of a cheaper and less complicated engine.

Regarding the weight of the engine, modern CRDI diesels are much lighter compared to the older DI/IDI engines, simply because they do not have to be built to massive proportions to cater to the tremendous knock of the older engines. Further the difference in the weight of the engine to total weight it has to propel (the vehicle + passengers + luggage) is slowly reducing to less than 10% in small hatches (< 800kg) and 2-3% for larger vehicle (> 1500kg), and at high speeds that weight difference pales in comparison to the air drag.

So I would say that barring free revving high performance petrols, modern diesel has most of the advantages - FE, Longevity, Low End Torque, for the normal commuter.
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Old 15th May 2011, 11:16   #273
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

I guess, ever since I got a feel of diesel cars I never looked back. I just can't have as much fun in petrols anymore. Sure its smoother, more refined etc. But for me, the way the diesel cranks up, the way it sounds, the way it purrs above 100 kmph, its just what seals the deal for me.

Take for instance. In a traffic jam, I'm happily idling away in my Palio Stile, then the traffic starts nudging forward. I just do a lil clutch play, and I'm moving with the traffic. I can go without ANY effort or any effort on the engine from N - 1st - 2nd - 3rd - 4th, on just the torque of this baby. No accelerator needed. How much fun is that!!
Driving barefoot is another pleasure altogether in a diesel. I could go on and on and on, but I'm become a total diesel head now. I'm sure the other diesel nuts on this forum will relate with what I'm saying.
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Old 15th May 2011, 11:34   #274
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

I voted No.

The main reason I have a diesel is that it makes a lot of sence economically. I would always prefer the easy going nature of the petrol engine. Its lighter, easier to start and gives immediate performance. Diesels have matched petrols nowadays, but you need a MERCEDES Diesel to beat a SUZUKI petrol, petrol is cheaper to maintain
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Old 15th May 2011, 12:11   #275
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

A little OT but I think if it continues this way, may be we will see diesel bikes very soon in the Indian market.

Cheers
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Old 15th May 2011, 12:15   #276
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Get real. In India diesel will not cost the same as petrol, forever. They might remove the diesel subsidy but diesel will be taxed at a lesser rate than petrol. If the diesel taxes are brought on par with petrol then everything in this country will become expensive. I dont think any political party will be able to bear the political fallout of such a decision, simply because diesel on [par with petrol will only serve to KILL the common man and the poor will just die.
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Old 15th May 2011, 12:21   #277
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Get real. In India diesel will not cost the same as petrol, forever. They might remove the diesel subsidy but diesel will be taxed at a lesser rate than petrol. If the diesel taxes are brought on par with petrol then everything in this country will become expensive. I dont think any political party will be able to bear the political fallout of such a decision, simply because diesel on [par with petrol will only serve to KILL the common man and the poor will just die.
+1 to that .

I read it somewhere that the hikes in fuel prices doesn't affect the poor and the rich much. Its just the middle class that gets slaughtered!
@Harishnair: The higher tax on diesel vehicles is already there IIRC.

Last edited by MileCruncher : 15th May 2011 at 12:32.
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Old 15th May 2011, 12:25   #278
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

This huge price disparity between diesel and petrol is going to bring a large influx of private diesel vehicles in to the market. This scenario will cause more harm than good to the economy and the very purpose of fuel subsidy will get diluted. So, the govt. has to something to prevent this, may be introduce a one time tax for the diesel vehicles or introduce a different pricing for the fuel bought by private vehicle owners.
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Old 15th May 2011, 13:06   #279
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

I dont understand, why those who own petrol vehicles are so bothered about diesel vehicle owners paying less for fuel. No one has stopped a petrol vehicle owner from choosing to own a diesel vehicle.

Current diesel technology has made diesel engines very clean and on par with the bes modern petrols in terms of environmental impact.

In fact, I have a solution. Lets all own diesel vehicles. When no one will buy petrol, then the game will change. Government will either tax diesel more. In fact they wont need to tax it more. Just a miniscule change on the higher side will suffice to compensate for the tax losses due to lack of petrol sale. In addition a higher one time charge to buy and own a diesel vehicle will add to government kitty to compensate for loss of petrol sales tax. Then, the only ones buying petrol will be bikers and real petrol heads. And since petrol price wont be selling as much, it wont be hiked further due to the diesel sales compensation, the bikers can rejoice. No need to think of diesel bikes.

Overtime, diesel and petrol will automatically be on par. Government is only concerned with taxes. Eventually there will be no need for subsidies.
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Old 15th May 2011, 13:33   #280
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheARUN View Post
I voted No.

The main reason I have a diesel is that it makes a lot of sence economically. I would always prefer the easy going nature of the petrol engine. Its lighter, easier to start and gives immediate performance. Diesels have matched petrols nowadays, but you need a MERCEDES Diesel to beat a SUZUKI petrol, petrol is cheaper to maintain
Why would any one need a mercedes diesel to beat a suzuki petrol ? please drive the new vento , verna , cruze before making such comments , infact they are segment leader and very much on par with there petrol versions forget a suzuki engine. even a cruze can beat a 20l kizashi in a 0-100 dash , so y a merc
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Old 15th May 2011, 14:03   #281
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

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Originally Posted by moose56 View Post
Why would any one need a mercedes diesel to beat a suzuki petrol ? please drive the new vento , verna , cruze before making such comments , infact they are segment leader and very much on par with there petrol versions forget a suzuki engine. even a cruze can beat a 20l kizashi in a 0-100 dash , so y a merc
Interesting. The initial ad campaigns of the Kizashi had the 0-100 times in 1.8 Tsi beating league. Could you please help me with 0-100 times as tested?

Besides from experience i know that the Laura 1.8 Tsi (petrol engine) blows the cruze into pieces when it comes to outright performance, so not sure how this were added up.

Please keep in mind that by comparing most of the diesel engines to petrol engines in the market today you are comparing a naturally aspirated engines with a forced induction, I dont know about the world but i dont think that is a fair comparison.

On the same level, the 1.8 Tsi petrol engine in the Laura beats the 2.0 Turbo engine in the cruze on 0-100 times. Period.

Personally, being a little immature and a huge petrol head, I still opt for the Petrol engine even though the prices are currently higher. So if the prices were the same, it just keeps me that far away from the diesel.

Again, strictly personal opinion. I know the torques on Diesel are higher. But i prefer BHP over NM
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Old 15th May 2011, 14:07   #282
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MileCruncher View Post
+1 to that .

I read it somewhere that the hikes in fuel prices doesn't affect the poor and the rich much. Its just the middle class that gets slaughtered!
@Harishnair: The higher tax on diesel vehicles is already there IIRC.
Diesel prices do effect the poor indirectly - and often pinch more than they pinch the middle class.

A larger fraction of a poor households expenses goes towards essential commodities (food grains, clothes ...) than that for the middle class - which these days pays much larger fractions for services (e.g. restaurant food, readymade clothes ...) even where essentials are concerned.

Diesel runs the whole supply chain network in the country - railways, trucks, buses, in-city goods carriers and what not.

Increasing diesel prices is a sure way of losing elections as a result.

Also, diesel is not a recipient of subsidy in last few years, in fact the taxes on diesel are used to subsidies kerosene and LPG (which is where middle class benefits).

The biggest problem is that a good part of the blanket subsidy on fuels is given (in the name of the poor) to the wrong segment - the middle class. A better way to tackle the problem is to tax diesel vehicles higher than the petrol vehicles (for commercial vehicles it wouldn't matter and for passenger vehicles it will kill the market), and eliminate subsidy on LPG
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Old 15th May 2011, 14:27   #283
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaysmokesleaves View Post
Get real. In India diesel will not cost the same as petrol, forever. They might remove the diesel subsidy but diesel will be taxed at a lesser rate than petrol. If the diesel taxes are brought on par with petrol then everything in this country will become expensive. I dont think any political party will be able to bear the political fallout of such a decision, simply because diesel on [par with petrol will only serve to KILL the common man and the poor will just die.

First it is the Subsidy on Diesel, Kerosene and LPG and not taxes which makes them much cheaper than petrol. Taxes on energy resources form a small percentage.
  • Please read: “Heavily subsidized fuels like kerosene, for instance, are used by many poor Indians for lighting and cooking. By comparison, gasoline is not subsidized as much, and its retail price is already much higher than in the United States because of high taxes.”
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/26/bu...l/26rupee.html
Second I don't think that it is entirely true that Diesel and Petrol won't cost the same in the future. As a member of the G-20 India is required to cut energy subsidies.

  • Please read: “India and other big countries committed to eliminating energy subsidies at a Group of 20 meeting last year, but policy makers here have repeatedly put off the politically difficult change.” A 2007 U.N Study found that energy subsidies worldwide, which totaled about $300 billion, mainly benefit wealthier people. The report concluded that cancelling these subsidies might reduce greenhouse gas emissions by as much as 6 percent.
    Fuel Subsidy | India
IMHO
  • Governments change and so do economic policies including energy subsidies in India. No government will do a price correction between petrol and diesel overnight, but they will do so over a period of time (5-10 years or two parliament terms). Just because the Congress government is shying from the idea does not mean subsequent governments will also do the same.
  • Government also has the option of introducing taxes on new diesel cars/suvs. But that won’t address the problem as there are already millions of diesel cars/suv on the road which will continue to benefit from subsidized diesel prices.
  • Lastly modern Diesel engines are more fuel efficient hence even if both fuel price becomes the same, you are daily running cost on Diesel will still be low.

Last edited by bharatbs : 15th May 2011 at 14:30.
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Old 15th May 2011, 14:33   #284
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Default Re: Petrol Car vs Diesel Car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroy View Post
Roughly BHP is Torque x RPM. Diesels produce tremendous torque at lower RPM, which gives them an advantage at slow speeds. If you can get more gears at the top end - say 2 or 3 overdrive ratios instead of 1, then the diesels will perform quite well at high speeds also. Just look at the BMW 3 series diesel performance. Over the same CC, the diesels are competitive or better than the petrols. Of course the diesels have turbos, so you may say that a petrol turbo will be better, but then you loose the advantage of a cheaper and less complicated engine.

Regarding the weight of the engine, modern CRDI diesels are much lighter compared to the older DI/IDI engines, simply because they do not have to be built to massive proportions to cater to the tremendous knock of the older engines. Further the difference in the weight of the engine to total weight it has to propel (the vehicle + passengers + luggage) is slowly reducing to less than 10% in small hatches (< 800kg) and 2-3% for larger vehicle (> 1500kg), and at high speeds that weight difference pales in comparison to the air drag.

So I would say that barring free revving high performance petrols, modern diesel has most of the advantages - FE, Longevity, Low End Torque, for the normal commuter.

you have given the exact figures for my argument thanks.

on using higher gear ratio - I don't know how feasible that will be (very wide gear ratio range => too many gears, not good for drivability), but probably it is possible nevertheless (e.g. with AT)
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Old 15th May 2011, 14:37   #285
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Default Re: Would you still buy a Diesel car if Diesel was priced closer to Petrol?

Quote:
Originally Posted by azeemhafiz View Post
Interesting. The initial ad campaigns of the Kizashi had the 0-100 times in 1.8 Tsi beating league. Could you please help me with 0-100 times as tested?

Besides from experience i know that the Laura 1.8 Tsi (petrol engine) blows the cruze into pieces when it comes to outright performance, so not sure how this were added up.

Please keep in mind that by comparing most of the diesel engines to petrol engines in the market today you are comparing a naturally aspirated engines with a forced induction, I dont know about the world but i dont think that is a fair comparison.

On the same level, the 1.8 Tsi petrol engine in the Laura beats the 2.0 Turbo engine in the cruze on 0-100 times. Period.

Personally, being a little immature and a huge petrol head, I still opt for the Petrol engine even though the prices are currently higher. So if the prices were the same, it just keeps me that far away from the diesel.

Again, strictly personal opinion. I know the torques on Diesel are higher. But i prefer BHP over NM
cruze manual - 9.64
kizashi manual - 9.13
cruze auto - 9.95
kizashi auto - 10.15


this figures are according to ACI.

BTW laura petrol is an amazing and can even beat even few luxury cars with its performance. my reply was based on what our friend arun said that "you need a MERCEDES Diesel to beat a SUZUKI petrol" and that's totally

Last edited by moose56 : 15th May 2011 at 14:40.
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