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Old 2nd July 2010, 22:48   #16
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
A Decade old Alto with the Astar engine will kick the life out of any new Fiat. Just see what the Swift is doing to the Punto. I think Fiat is confused. To be a mass player, A** is crucial. Fiat should first try and consolidate its position in the existing Punto and Linea segments rather than proliferating without building the necessary capabilities. One thing they can do is to license Suzuki petrol engines for smaller cars. They may meet with some success
Hard Statements, mate. While I can completely agree that FIAT currently is no match for Maruti network as of today but collaboration with TATA has improved their situation manifold.

As far as your statements regarding engine performances are concerned, they are highly misplaced. FIAT is known for their engines and no amount of improvements on a measly Alto can compare to FIAT in this segment.

Further, you talk about swift without realising that a major chunk of swift sales comes through FIAT's much appreciated and ward winning 1.3L Multijet Engine.
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Old 2nd July 2010, 23:27   #17
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
A Decade old Alto with the Astar engine will kick the life out of any new Fiat. Just see what the Swift is doing to the Punto. I think Fiat is confused. To be a mass player, A** is crucial. Fiat should first try and consolidate its position in the existing Punto and Linea segments rather than proliferating without building the necessary capabilities. One thing they can do is to license Suzuki petrol engines for smaller cars. They may meet with some success
I couldnt disagree with you more and such statements even if in a lighter vein are just not acceptable. Agreed maruti makes good petrol engines. Its completely different for a fanboy to praise the brand he is loyal to and its completely different to undermine another brand just for fun or for whatever bias you hold against it. 300 posts down but it seems you still havent understood a few things about team bhp and with such mindset i have my doubts and a very harsh statement.

Getting back to the thread i feel the 1.2 litre engine from punto would be great for this car. With lower weight than punto(better power to weight) we can expect the car to be more peppier. if only FIAT makes it as peppy as my 95 zen it would work wonders with the sales.

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Old 3rd July 2010, 10:24   #18
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Originally Posted by MihirC View Post
I couldnt disagree with you more and such statements even if in a lighter vein are just not acceptable. Agreed maruti makes good petrol engines. Its completely different for a fanboy to praise the brand he is loyal to and its completely different to undermine another brand just for fun or for whatever bias you hold against it. 300 posts down but it seems you still havent understood a few things about team bhp and with such mindset i have my doubts and a very harsh statement.
I only reacted the satatement made by the poster, who seems to be making blanket statements on a brand despite admitting himself that he has stopped test driving maruti cars 3 years ago. Besides I am not loyal to any brand. I have driven a Premier (Fiat) and currently own Maruti's though. I am not undermining any brand. Just placing hard facts. Fiats are good cars. However, to compete in the mass segment, you need more than good products. You need to be atleast perceived to have a good service network. That is the most difficult part for Fiat with they even struggling with the Punto and Linea. So chill down and I know what Team BHP is all about

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Originally Posted by akhilesh51 View Post
Hard Statements, mate. While I can completely agree that FIAT currently is no match for Maruti network as of today but collaboration with TATA has improved their situation manifold.

As far as your statements regarding engine performances are concerned, they are highly misplaced. FIAT is known for their engines and no amount of improvements on a measly Alto can compare to FIAT in this segment.

Further, you talk about swift without realising that a major chunk of swift sales comes through FIAT's much appreciated and ward winning 1.3L Multijet Engine.
You have answered the question yourself. Even with a Fantastic Diesel engine, Punto is nowehere close to Swift that shares the same engine. Obviously there is someting missing with the Fiat. Thats all what I am saying. To compete in the mass segment and manage volumes they need to really sort out the A**. They are improving but have a long way to go
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Old 3rd July 2010, 11:31   #19
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
A Decade old Alto with the Astar engine will kick the life out of any new Fiat. Just see what the Swift is doing to the Punto. I think Fiat is confused. To be a mass player, A** is crucial. Fiat should first try and consolidate its position in the existing Punto and Linea segments rather than proliferating without building the necessary capabilities. One thing they can do is to license Suzuki petrol engines for smaller cars. They may meet with some success
It is stupid to say that a manufacturer should only introduce newer models after the existing models attain certain sales point. Sorry but I cant see the logic in it.
Every auto manufacturer has presence in multiple segment, because it does not make sense to exist only with 1 or 2 models or in a single segment. Why do you think fiat should do that?

Dont get me wrong. I am not a fiat fanboy. But I feel that maruti is a company which had the maximum opportunities but decided to take Indian customers for granted and took advantage of the fact that this market is not well informed.
If not for the competition(and emission norms) Maruti would still be selling us only a 30+ yr old 800 with a carburetor engine or if we are lucky maybe the zen. So, even if you are a Maruti fan, cheer for the competition, because that is the only way maruti will update its portfolio(apart from facelifts ofcourse).
BTW, a maruti fan should never hate fiat as a company because a huge chunk of maruti sales comes from 1.3 MJD engine.

I will probably never buy a fiat, but I still love to see the competition hoting up.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 11:55   #20
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Originally Posted by mxx View Post
It is stupid to say that a manufacturer should only introduce newer models after the existing models attain certain sales point. Sorry but I cant see the logic in it.
Every auto manufacturer has presence in multiple segment, because it does not make sense to exist only with 1 or 2 models or in a single segment. Why do you think fiat should do that?

Dont get me wrong. I am not a fiat fanboy. But I feel that maruti is a company which had the maximum opportunities but decided to take Indian customers for granted and took advantage of the fact that this market is not well informed.
Yes Maruti may have had the first mover advantage. That doesn't mean they haven't got their own capabilities. Despite competition attacking, Maruti is growing at a good rate. They should deserve credit for that. Similarly, look at Hyundai; they came in just a decade ago and look at the way they have attained the current status. Fiat seems to have got their act wrong. I am not reacting as a consumer but placing my view on what Fiat as a company should be doing. Obviously as consumers we want to have everything. Fiat needs to first understand that managing large volumes needs a good service back up and providing the reasssuarnce to masses. Fiat seems to be improving a great deal in their A**. They should build this capability even further before looking at large scale play. I am all for competition hotting up and in agreement with you on the same.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 12:25   #21
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
I only reacted the satatement made by the poster, who seems to be making blanket statements on a brand despite admitting himself that he has stopped test driving maruti cars 3 years ago. Besides I am not loyal to any brand. I have driven a Premier (Fiat) and currently own Maruti's though. I am not undermining any brand. Just placing hard facts. Fiats are good cars. However, to compete in the mass segment, you need more than good products. You need to be atleast perceived to have a good service network. That is the most difficult part for Fiat with they even struggling with the Punto and Linea. So chill down and I know what Team BHP is all about



You have answered the question yourself. Even with a Fantastic Diesel engine, Punto is nowehere close to Swift that shares the same engine. Obviously there is someting missing with the Fiat. Thats all what I am saying. To compete in the mass segment and manage volumes they need to really sort out the A**. They are improving but have a long way to go
I agree its not just about good products and the A** should be strong enough. I havent owned a Premier but We have a Linea in the house and the A** is as good as it can get.

If you are aware of what Team-Bhp is about then i guess you should have reported any baseless posts to the mods instead of contributing to them

Lastly mate , although the swift and punto share the same engine, the engines are tuned pretty different and I guess so is the gear box which is the sole reason behind the fun to drive nature of swift versus the sedate driving nature of the punto. Peace mate.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 21:54   #22
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Originally Posted by nurni76 View Post
You have answered the question yourself. Even with a Fantastic Diesel engine, Punto is nowehere close to Swift that shares the same engine. Obviously there is someting missing with the Fiat. Thats all what I am saying. To compete in the mass segment and manage volumes they need to really sort out the A**. They are improving but have a long way to go
This point has actually been argued to death. Simply put, Fiat has a historical baggage that is hard to remove; the PAL fiasco had made things so bad, that it was nearly over for them. The 1.3 diesel actually allowed them to stay in India and slowly try to turn things around. Contrary to what may people believe, I think they made a smart move to tie-up with Tata. There is nothing obviously missing from Fiat anymore, they now have the service network and the products to do well, once they are able to shake off the baggage.

In the context of this thread, I'd say that if they can launch a product in the Alto range (just above the Nano), it'll be a very good thing. Take a look at the Figo's launch, Ford's reputation - though better than Fiat's - was no great shakes either. It took one really value for money offering to turn things around.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 23:06   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51
FIAT is known for their engines and no amount of improvements on a measly Alto can compare to FIAT in this segment.
In the Indian context, the only FIAT engine that is worth mentioning is the MJD and it is winning laurels only in a Suzuki body. Another engine that is worth mentioning here is the 1.6 petrol. Other than these, what engines are we talking about here in the Indian context - the 1.1, 1.2 etc that find it tough to take on the obese bodies that they get unfortunately mated with ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by akhilesh51
Further, you talk about swift without realising that a major chunk of swift sales comes through FIAT's much appreciated and ward winning 1.3L Multijet Engine.
So ? If it was just the engine, wonder why the same much-appreciated and award-winning engine could not do much on Fiat's own Puntos/Lineas or on the partner's Vista / Manza. Which kind of makes it clear that there is much more to a car than the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MihirC
Its completely different for a fanboy to praise the brand he is loyal to and its completely different to undermine another brand just for fun or for whatever bias you hold against it.
Funny this rankles you only when it is Fiat that is undermined. If you looked at the context in which he mentioned this, you would have seen instances of undermining other brands. But then, hey its a Suzuki, so why bother, right ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mxx
a maruti fan should never hate fiat as a company because a huge chunk of maruti sales comes from 1.3 MJD engine.
Oh yeah, Maruti fans should build temples for Fiat. You seem to forget that apart from the Ritz/Swift/Dzire, there are many other cars Suzuki sells here that sell more than the competition, minus the so-called Fiat engines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MihirC
although the swift and punto share the same engine, the engines are tuned pretty different and I guess so is the gear box which is the sole reason behind the fun to drive nature of swift versus the sedate driving nature of the punto.
Finally, someone agrees that there is more to a car than the engine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nurni76
A Decade old Alto with the Astar engine will kick the life out of any new Fiat.
Without any doubt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PAVAN KADAM
Alto is on its last legs of existence. Maruti is lucky that they could sell this contraption for this long in the country. The Alto might not even stay that long to compete with the Fiats new car.
Yaaaaaaawn. Let the Fiat come and then we can talk about hypothetical situations.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 23:23   #24
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Without any doubt.
Well, it was all going fine till this. Why "without a doubt"? We don't even know about the car's specifications.
I know I am nitpicking, and that you probably made this comment in jest, but these comments just leave the door open for someone to start trashing the other brand and again objectivity goes out of the window.

Hasn't everyone had enough of Bad Fiat A.S.S. and rattling Maruti's?

How about trying discuss what engine options/what platform/what price should Fiat look at, so that it fits with the Tata Fiat line-up. Here's my input for the product positioning for this alliance:

a. Nano - Petrol and diesel - Ranging from 1.3 ex-showroom (base petrol, because prices are bound to increase) to 2.5 ex-showroom (diesel).

b. FIAT small car - not aware of their smaller diesel mills, hence going with a 1.1 litre Petrol - starts at 2.5 ex-showroom and goes till 3.5 ex-showroom. Basically the Indica Xeta should be out.

c. Indica Vista and Indigo CS

d.Punto

e. Manza

f. Linea

Note, haven't included any SUV's from the Tata stable.
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Old 3rd July 2010, 23:50   #25
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Originally Posted by Amartya
I know I am nitpicking, and that you probably made this comment in jest,
You are, and unfairly so because while you seem to find my comment out of line, you seem to ignore illogical comments made earlier. And given that the Fiat small car is currently all speculation, I dont think there is anything wrong in saying that a 1-litre Alto will lick it.
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Old 4th July 2010, 11:13   #26
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Well it is not speculation if the top honcho says it is gonna be, more here Fiat India small car to take on Alto-Automobiles-Auto-News By Industry-News-The Economic Times

The objectivity has gone out of the thread by statements that brand A will kick the backside of brand B. If at all, this injunction of "will" is a speculative argument. 2012 is still some way off and how each manufacturer will learn from market dynamics can't be speculated by easy definitive terms. So why not better stick to what the top honcho has announced.
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Old 4th July 2010, 13:26   #27
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One thing we must all understand a enthusiast car will never sell like a mass selling car .So it is assured FIAT will never sell like Maruti/Hyundai (the people mover) .So why do Maruti/Hyndai loyal are envious of Fiat's.So lets just discuss the product .
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Old 4th July 2010, 22:40   #28
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Originally Posted by Trust_In_Thrust
One thing we must all understand a enthusiast car will never sell like a mass selling car .So it is assured FIAT will never sell like Maruti/Hyundai.
If packaged well and if a complete product, an enthusiast car can also sell. And at the lowest segment, more so. Quoting from the article :

<<It will be an all-new car, nothing to do with any of our other models and will be priced aggressively. It will compete with the Alto and will have a one-litre engine, Rajeev Kapoor, MD, Fiat India told ET.>>

If the above is true - priced aggressively, competes with Alto and with a 1l engine, why won't it sell ? And if it also comes with a lean body, that would be a sure-fire advantage.

And if at that time, the Alto is available with a 1litre K-series, that would be a fair competition.
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Old 5th July 2010, 10:18   #29
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Guys please avoid comparing brands. Please stick to the subject of the new car.
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Old 7th July 2011, 22:20   #30
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Default Re: Fiat India small car to take on Alto

Fiat to launch a small new car in 2012

Highlights...

The car will be powered by a 1.0 litre engine and its design will not resemble any of Fiat’s other models. The new small car, according to Kapoor (quoted on January 2011) will target Maruti Alto buyers and the company’s R&D team is working to develop this car to best meet the customers’ needs.

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...-rajeev-kapoor

Last edited by volkman10 : 7th July 2011 at 22:21.
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