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Old 30th July 2010, 11:43   #211
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Originally Posted by bkbkr1212 View Post
Oops, did my post warrant such a strong reaction, that too from a Senior-BHPian.?
Sorry for the "stupid" post.

Now that you have decided that i know nothing about Automobile R&D means, could you please enlighten me on the same?

BTW, got this information from a colleagues' friend who works in the R&D dept in the same co.
But I would like to hear from you since you seem to have got very offended.Please make sure that you are not writing something concrete, not hearsay.
Best regards,
A correction on the above. Please make sure that you are not writing something concrete, not hearsay. to Please make sure that you are writing something concrete, not hearsay.
Anyway Latheesh I got to know a bit what Automobile "R&D" means from the below two sites
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_94335258/

Mahindra & Mahindra, FEV Collaborate on Diesel Hybrid Scorpio
BTW, I work as a designer/architect for a living albeit in a different field.
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Old 30th July 2010, 12:00   #212
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Originally Posted by airbender View Post
Yes, if they were fully owned subsidary of suzuki. But they are not. Nokia's india division is their fully owned by them. So your comparision is apples to oranges.
Then what about Toyota India. Isn't it a JV with kirloskar.
Mitsubishi- JV with HM
Fiat - JV with tata

and don't forget the A-star was designed and developed by Indian engineers at Maruti.
This has been already discussed here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ti-suzuki.html (Concept A-Star from Maruti Suzuki)
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Old 30th July 2010, 12:13   #213
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
Then what about Toyota India. Isn't it a JV with kirloskar.
Mitsubishi- JV with HM
Fiat - JV with tata

and don't forget the A-star was designed and developed by Indian engineers at Maruti.
This has been already discussed here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ti-suzuki.html (Concept A-Star from Maruti Suzuki)
I think its not a good idea to write about Indian engineers giving example of A-star. A-star with absolutely no room in rear even to put legs, Don't know how could Indian engineers design such a disaster, that to knowing well how important back seats are for a Indian family.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:21   #214
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I think its not a good idea to write about Indian engineers giving example of A-star. A-star with absolutely no room in rear even to put legs, Don't know how could Indian engineers design such a disaster, that to knowing well how important back seats are for a Indian family.
A-star is basically a 2 seater made with european buyers in mind,
with the backrow meant only for kids.

Why even a car like Polo which is 4meter in length, has tight rear seat knee room. Reason is the same as above.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:35   #215
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Originally Posted by Daewood View Post
A-star is basically a 2 seater made with european buyers in mind, with the backrow meant only for kids.
Which European country do they sell it as a 2 seater?
AFAIK its 4 door/4 seater in UK and Germany.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:46   #216
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Indians are plagued by "I want it all mentality". They don't try to find out what one personally need in a car. They want excellent rear space, excellent boot space and excellent front space. But how can you provide all this in a length of 4000mm. If aerodynamics or looks of car also is a criteria then the head room also is going to suffer.
Any one can create space by going for awkward designs like Ritz.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:50   #217
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Originally Posted by poloman View Post
Indians are plagued by "I want it all mentality". They don't try to find out what one personally need in a car. They want excellent rear space, excellent boot space and excellent front space. But how can you provide all this in a length of 4000mm. If aerodynamics or looks of car also is a criteria then the head room also is going to suffer.
Any one can create space by going for awkward designs like Ritz.
Tata answered that question with Indica (3690mm) and Indica Vista which is sub 4mtrs. The other one is Jazz.
Edit: Forgot to mention Indigo CS, you get all that is in bold!!

Last edited by HammerHead : 30th July 2010 at 16:53.
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Old 30th July 2010, 16:58   #218
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I assume Indica vista has achieved this with a bulbous design where bonnet area is minimized.
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Old 31st July 2010, 00:16   #219
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Originally Posted by bkbkr1212 View Post
BTW, I work as a designer/architect for a living albeit in a different field.
So you know the difficulty in making a product from concept to
launch. Companies doing everything inhouse is old story, then it changed to outsourcing. But in recent past this has taken all new turn, now the suppliers are 'partners/collaborators' in a product development. This is happening big scale in India also, few best examples are Nano and Scorpio.

According to me Mahindra is best in doing collaborative development.period. 'doing something is not difficult than getting it done'

I have good case study on this subject (more than 50 pages), let me search and try to share it.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 09:15   #220
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Originally Posted by mohandas View Post
How true!! But there is another group who rub theirs on Maruthi's and think that those are in same class of acura or lexus.
+10k to that. Honda is snob value coz we have Maruti's running on our roads. heh



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Originally Posted by vinaydas View Post
all said and done , i would so love to see a Totally Independent Maruti 10 years from now
And i would love Cows to fly, Horses run backwards and ..... IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Maruti is a Javanese Chop stick they will lick it till the Indian market gives them a positive cash flow.Once that is done they will sell it to the highest Chinese bidder and run off to say maybe an African Car Market.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 11:26   #221
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+10k to that. Honda is snob value coz we have Maruti's running on our roads. heh

Pity you. All my sympathies are with you for being person with no objectivity whatsoever when it comes to Honda.

I would love to see one thing.

Fit a Maruti or Tata or Hyndai or any other so called "lowly" vehicles (in the eyes of Honda-Bonda owners) with V-Tec engine and other stuff which Honda boasts about to fleece car buyers like you.
Fit Honda with the above mentioned car's engines.

I can write it in my blood that 99% in this forum (this deduction is by reading the posts and comments) will still say "Wow Honda is fantastic" and the others are crap.


And i would love Cows to fly, Horses run backwards and ..... IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Maruti is a Javanese Chop stick they will lick it till the Indian market gives them a positive cash flow.Once that is done they will sell it to the highest Chinese bidder and run off to say maybe an African Car Market.
If Maruti is a Japanses Chop stick , what are Honda, Toyota etc? Honda,Toyota etc build some crap for India markets and we gobble in without even applying our minds.
If Suzuki didn't have Maruti prefix, we would have done the same.

Ideally we should question everything.If not question,at least be curious to know. That will help you in your life

Yes, applying minds is a difficult thing, it's hard for you to understand a guy like you.
So live in your fantasy world and revel in your foolish thoughts (if you think actually )

To understand something about all these, please read the below two:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/sedans...eatures-2.html (VVT-i vs. i-VTEC? driving pleasure v. Features?)
The below one I got from a different car site. So wasn't sure whether mods would allow me to paste the site name here.
Oh, one more thing. No doubt Honda guys invented this technology. Can't take away that from them.

The problem I have is not with immaculate Honda technology/engines, but with the people who comment about all these with limited knowledged

MIVEC vs. VTEC vs. VVT etc
This was pretty interesting and informative. i though everyone could benefit from this one;

There are a couple of ways by which car manufacturer's vary the valve timing. The most well known system is the VTEC which is used on some of the Honda engines. Other systems which some of you might not have heard of are:
* VarioCam/VarioCam Plus which is used on some of the Porsche engines,
* MIVEC(Mitsubishi Innovative Valve timing and lift Electronic Control) which is used on the Mitsubishi engines,
* VVT-i(Variable Valve Timing with Intelligence) and now VVTL-i (Variable Valve Timing and Lift with Intelligence) which is being used on the current Toyota and some Lexus engines,
* VVL(Variable Valve Lift) which is used on the Nissan engines and also featured in the 350Z is the CVTCS (Continuously Variable Valve Timing System)
* VANOS(Variable Onckenwellen Steuerung) which is used in the BMW engines and also the Double VANOS system on the new 3 Series and they are many more similar systems used by manufacturers such as Ford, Lamborghini and even Ferrari.

What do all these Vs have in common? Well, in case you don't already know (or haven't yet guessed despite the monster hint in the article's title), the V stands for valves or, more specifically, variable valve timing.

Before you can appreciate how important valve timing is, you have to understand how it relates to engine operation. Remember that an engine is basically a glorified air pump and, as such, the most effective way to increase horsepower and/or efficiency is to increase an engine's ability to process air. There are a number of ways to do this that range from altering the exhaust system to upgrading the fuel system to installing a less-restrictive air filter. Since an engine's valves play a major role in how air gets in and out of the combustion chamber, it makes sense to focus on them when looking to increase horsepower and efficiency.

This is exactly what Honda, Toyota and BMW and quite a number of other manufacturer's have done in recent years. By using advanced systems to alter the opening and closing of engine valves, they have created more powerful and clean burning engines that require less fuel and are relatively small in displacement.

Before we take a look at each of these variable valve-timing systems, let's rehash how valve timing normally works. Until recently, a manufacturer used one or more camshafts (plus some pushrods, lifters and rocker arms) to open and close an engine's valves. The camshaft/camshafts was turned by a timing chain that connected to the crankshaft. As engine rpm's rose and fell, the crankshaft and camshaft would turn faster or slower to keep valve timing relatively close to what was needed for engine operation.

Unfortunately, the dynamics of airflow through a combustion chamber change radically between 2,000 rpm and 6,000 rpm. Despite the manufacturer's best efforts, there was just no way to maximize valve timing for high and low rpm with a simple crankshaft-driven valve train. Instead, engineers had to develop a "compromise" system that would allow an engine to start and run when pulling out of the driveway but also allow for strong acceleration and highway cruising at 70+ mph. Obviously, they were successful. However, because of the "compromise" nature of standard valve train systems, few engines were ever in their "sweet zone," which resulted in wasted fuel and reduced performance.

Variable valve timing has changed all that. By coming up with a way to alter valve timing between high and low rpm's, Honda, Toyota and BMW and many more manufacturer's can now tune valve operation for optimum performance and efficiency throughout the entire rev range.

Honda was the first to offer what it called VTEC in its Acura-badged performance models like the Integra GS-R and NSX (it has since worked its way into the Prelude and even the lowly Civic). VTEC stands for Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control. It basically uses two sets of camshaft profiles-one for low and mid-range rpm and one for high rpm operation. An electronic switch shifts between the two profiles at a specific rpm to increase peak horsepower and improve torque. As a VTEC driver, you can both hear and feel the change when the VTEC "kicks in" at higher rpm levels to improve performance. While this system does not offer continuously variable valve timing, it can make the most of high rpm operation while still providing solid drivability at lower rpm levels. Honda is already working on a three-step VTEC system that will further improve performance and efficiency across the engine rpm range.

The camshaft in a pushrod engine is often driven by gears or a short chain. Gear-drives are generally less prone to breakage than belt drives, which are often found in overhead cam engines.

Toyota saw the success Honda was having with VTEC (from both a functional and marketing standpoint) but decided to go a different route. Instead of the on/off system that VTEC employs, Toyota decided it wanted a continuously variable system that would maximize valve timing throughout the rpm range. Dubbed VVTi for Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (Is this a dig at Honda, suggesting their system isn't intelligent?), Toyota uses a hydraulic rather than mechanical system to alter the intake cam's phasing. The main difference from VTEC is that VVTi maintains the same cam profile and alters only when the valves open and close in relation to engine speed. Also, this system works only on the intake valve while VTEC has two settings for the intake and the exhaust valves, which makes for a more dramatic gain in peak power than VVTi can claim.

Ferrari has a really neat way of doing this. The camshafts on some Ferrari engines are cut with a three-dimensional profile that varies along the length of the cam lobe. At one end of the cam lobe is the least aggressive cam profile, and at the other end is the most aggressive. The shape of the cam smoothly blends these two profiles together. A mechanism can slide the whole camshaft laterally so that the valve engages different parts of the cam. The shaft still spins just like a regular camshaft, but by gradually sliding the camshaft laterally as the engine speed and load increase, the valve timing can be optimized.

Several other manufacturers, including Ford, Lamborghini and Porsche have jumped on the cam phasing bandwagon because it is a relatively cheap method of increasing horsepower, torque and efficiency. BMW has also used a cam phasing system, called VANOS (Variable Onckenwellen Steuerung) for several years. Like the other manufacturers, this system only affected the intake cams. But, as of 1999, BMW is offering its Double VANOS system on the new 3 Series. As you might have guessed, Double VANOS manipulates both the intake and exhaust camshafts to provide efficient operation at all rpm's. This helps the new 328i, equipped with a 2.8-liter inline six, develop 193 peak horsepower and 206 pound-feet of torque. More impressive than the peak numbers, however, is the broad range of useable power that goes along with this system.

Several engine manufacturers are experimenting with systems that would allow infinite variability in valve timing. For example, imagine that each valve had a solenoid on it that could open and close the valve using computer control rather than relying on a camshaft. With this type of system, you would get maximum engine performance at every RPM. Something to look forward to in the future!

To close these series of articles on camshafts, you can see that as the benefits of variable valve timing used on cams become more apparent to both consumers and manufacturers, you can expect to see it on just about every vehicle sold in the world. I suspect that in five years, variable valve timing will be like ABS or side-impact beams: only really cheap cars won't have it.



Best Regards,
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Old 2nd August 2010, 11:32   #222
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Originally Posted by Latheesh View Post
So you know the difficulty in making a product from concept to
launch. Companies doing everything inhouse is old story, then it changed to outsourcing. But in recent past this has taken all new turn, now the suppliers are 'partners/collaborators' in a product development. This is happening big scale in India also, few best examples are Nano and Scorpio.

According to me Mahindra is best in doing collaborative development.period. 'doing something is not difficult than getting it done'

I have good case study on this subject (more than 50 pages), let me search and try to share it.
Please Latheesh,
This " 'doing something is not difficult than getting it done'" , unfortunately is the place where we differ. Sorry for that.
Designing anything from grounds up and implementing it is in a different league.
"Getting it done", you tell someone something and sit back and relax for a status report.
Atleast in the industry I work in (IT) the 2nd category is adopted by useless managers(yes, most of them are useless) and the 1st category is where real technical know how is required. In addition to that a lot of commitment ,passion, love for work etc needs to be there to do a product from end - to end.

Best Regards
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Old 2nd August 2010, 18:31   #223
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Originally Posted by bkbkr1212 View Post
Please Latheesh,
This " 'doing something is not difficult than getting it done'" , unfortunately is the place where we differ. Sorry for that.
Designing anything from grounds up and implementing it is in a different league.
"Getting it done", you tell someone something and sit back and relax for a status report.
Atleast in the industry I work in (IT) the 2nd category is adopted by useless managers(yes, most of them are useless) and the 1st category is where real technical know how is required. In addition to that a lot of commitment ,passion, love for work etc needs to be there to do a product from end - to end.
Best Regards
IT is a whole different story in India (I work for one).

If you have the knowledge, skill and resources you can do it inhouse.

But when third party is involved its all different story. In automobile development it is not that you give a work to vendor and relax with the status sheet. Now a days vendors are collaborators and gets involved in the new product development from concept stages itself. This has got its own difficulties especially in India where other than the above mentioned skill/resources many others factors come in to the picture. And many in India are kaam chors.
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Old 2nd August 2010, 19:55   #224
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Originally Posted by Latheesh View Post
IT is a whole different story in India (I work for one).

If you have the knowledge, skill and resources you can do it inhouse.

But when third party is involved its all different story. In automobile development it is not that you give a work to vendor and relax with the status sheet. Now a days vendors are collaborators and gets involved in the new product development from concept stages itself. This has got its own difficulties especially in India where other than the above mentioned skill/resources many others factors come in to the picture. And many in India are kaam chors.
Latheesh,
I made that comment about Automobile R&D because of one thing.
The remark was made by a colleague's friend who works in R&D dept of the same co you were referring to
When we were chatting(rather ruing ;-)) about IT, he said story is the same everywhere.
I think in India, only Civil Enginerrs and building archietcts to an extent get to do what they learn, atleast to a very good extent.
Agree on that Sir?
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Old 2nd August 2010, 20:02   #225
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Then what about Toyota India. Isn't it a JV with kirloskar.
Mitsubishi- JV with HM
Fiat - JV with tata

and don't forget the A-star was designed and developed by Indian engineers at Maruti.
This has been already discussed here
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ti-suzuki.html (Concept A-Star from Maruti Suzuki)
What is the share of Kirloskar in that JV? I believe it is less than 5%. So it almost a fully owned subsidiary.
Mitsubishi JV is a solely a techonology transfer one. Fiat and Tata is not on the lines of Maruti-Suzuki. As I said earlier it's apples to oranges comparo.

Till now Maruti has done nothing concrete out of the local R&D. But this will change in future. Not because suzuki loves to do it in india but they will be forced by competitors. Tata/Mahindra on one side and the other foreign makers on the other side will force them to do it. Other wise it would be hard for them to maintain margins and sleas growth. Tata/Mahindra products will meet or beat suzuki's pricing and toyota/ford will offer products which are comparatively priced to suzuki's. If maruti has to continue the same pricing they have to localize. That's why they say it's always good to have home grown companies. Without Tata/Mahindra maruti would never have pressure on pricing.


@bkbkr1212: Don't really understand what you are trying to say here. I don't know why you always try to divert the discussion to honda. Two wrongs cannot make it right.

Last edited by airbender : 2nd August 2010 at 20:16.
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