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Old 20th July 2010, 14:06   #46
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Originally Posted by raj_5004
But this made me think, are Indian brands considered so cheap? why are indian cars downgraded? whats so wrong with them? why do indians hate seeing themselves in an indian car?
Limiting the discussion to car brands (we are an auto-forum after all), I dont hate seeing myself in an Indian car. Neither do I think they are cheap or downmarket. I just find them lacking on quality/reliability compared to foreign cars. And I assume this is what runs in the minds of most people who avoid Indian brands. You do have the rare guy who believes his snob value increases if he is seen using a Honda. But then, I fail to understand what is snobbish about an 8lakh NHC ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004
Now, i do know that the innova is superior to both the SUVs, but not even test driving the SUVs mean you dont even want to consider the indian brands in front of a jap brand.
Of the 3, I like the Safari's looks & road-presence, find the Innova to look funny and don't like the Scorpio's looks, but when it comes to buying, your statement underlined above would be the reason why I would choose the Innova over the SUVs. If I can buy a superior product, why would I opt for something that doesn't match up ? As simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amartya
Coming back to cars, Tata and Mahindra still are some way off the quality levels (not just plastic) and reliability of the other brands.
You summed up what puts off many about Indian cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajushank84
I think this deep rooted inferiority complex comes from decades and centuries of importing technology
Are you implying the Indian consumer has an inferiority complex ? And if so, why should I have an inferiority complex because the Indian products lack the quality/reliability offered by its peers? At most, I might be ashamed that a "Made in India" product is not good enough. Inferiority complex should happen to the manufacturers who churn out inferior products.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
A Toyota LFA killed the chief test driver of Toyota in a head on collision of a car that is far inferior to the LFA. Interestingly both occupants in the in India not so liked box standard BMW 3 series survived.
I don't know what your point is here. Not only is each accident unique in the way it happened, just because occupants of one car came out alive, does not make it the safest thing on wheels. BTW, wasn't Lady Diana travelling in a BMW when she had the fatal accident ?

And on this forum we have an incident about a train grazing a car and since nothing happened to the folks in the car, we have people crowning that brand as the next best thing after T-92 battle tanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
The amount of cars Toyota has to call back right now is more than what Mahindra and Tata have produced combined in the last how many years?.
Things work differently in the Western world and in India. Just because manufacturers are not under any compulsion to recall defective cars here (unlike in the US where costs would be much more if they don't), does not mean we are getting perfect cars. And this applies to Indian and foreign car makers here.

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Originally Posted by CPH
I personally have fired people working for me who had bigger cars than me because their quality of work was not adequate to be paid the money they needed to show off with such a car..
I don't know what the idea is here, but if you have shoddy people working for you, most of the blame would lie on you or those who recruited them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
If all the people who have in their mind that Japanese cars have always been so good, then they should google the history of the Civic.
To a consumer, should history matter or how the cars are currently ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by airbender
I said this before on various threads, some indians suffer from phoren fetish
For God's sake, please do not inflict upon us on this thread also the absurd examples like eating hamburgers once in a while or ogling IPL-cheerleaders etc etc in support of your illogical theory of foreign fetish. If at all opting for a better product has any fetish attached to it, it would be a fetish for a quality product. Can't fault that, I would think.

Last edited by supremeBaleno : 20th July 2010 at 14:21.
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Old 20th July 2010, 14:45   #47
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Of the 3, I like the Safari's looks & road-presence, find the Innova to look funny and don't like the Scorpio's looks, but when it comes to buying, your statement underlined above would be the reason why I would choose the Innova over the SUVs. If I can buy a superior product, why would I opt for something that doesn't match up ? As simple as that.
because your priorities maybe different. because you expect something more of your car rather than simply A-B transport.
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Old 20th July 2010, 15:15   #48
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Manufacturing has never been India's stronghold, and maybe that
tag continues even today. It may also be a blessing in disguise
as the profitability in 'service industry' is much higher than in manufacturing.

Traditionally Indian companies have been perceived as being 'good at service'. That explains why we have 'service' brands like OBEROI or an INFOSYS being considered amongst the best in the world.
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Old 20th July 2010, 15:24   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
Are you implying the Indian consumer has an inferiority complex ? And if so, why should I have an inferiority complex because the Indian products lack the quality/reliability offered by its peers? At most, I might be ashamed that a "Made in India" product is not good enough. Inferiority complex should happen to the manufacturers who churn out inferior products.
Yes. I am not talking about you because I do not know you, but I am referring to the kind of person who passes a judgment on a product or company simply because it is Indian, without evaluating it. This in my opinion arises from inferiority complex, and there is absolutely nothing wrong in drawing parallels with how this type of person judges similar non-automobile products too - because the discussion itself is about why this kind of person makes these judgments.

If you have a different observation or have not come across such persons, that doesn't make it illogical or absurd.
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Old 20th July 2010, 16:30   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajushank84
I am referring to the kind of person who passes a judgment on a product or company simply because it is Indian, without evaluating it. This in my opinion arises from inferiority complex,
IMO, the fact that the product on which judgement is cast without evaluation being Indian is secondary. Primary reason would be the product not meeting certain requirements/benchmarks of the buyer. And this would apply even if the product were foreign. But I still do not see what inferiority complex has to do with choosing/chucking a product. Anyway, to each his own theory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajushank84
If you have a different observation or have not come across such persons, that doesn't make it illogical or absurd.
While I do not agree with your inf-complex theory, I dont think I called it absurd/illogical - not sure why you felt so.
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Old 20th July 2010, 18:12   #51
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Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
I dont hate seeing myself in an Indian car. Neither do I think they are cheap or downmarket. I just find them lacking on quality/reliability compared to foreign cars.
That was a wonderful sets of answers & each of the points speaking my mind. When I was looking out for a hatchback about 4 years ago, I'd only few choices, Santro, WagonR, Palio or Indica. Obviously I'd to settle in for Santro or WagonR after consulting with several friends & relatives & many people (including cab drivers) outwardly rejected the idea of owning an Indica, though I preferred buying an Indica diesel.

If I were to talk about few mature Indian brands, obviously non auto, I would say V-Guard in stablilizers, Venus water heaters & this is all I can recall. Its true that, the products lack quality & get worn out (be it car or anything) sooner than their foriegn competitors.

PS - I do feel little low when I use a low profile/below standard products rather than the brands.

Last edited by aargee : 20th July 2010 at 18:14.
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Old 20th July 2010, 19:35   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004
because your priorities maybe different. because you expect something more of your car rather than simply A-B transport.
You have a point. But then again using your example, it is wrong to compare a van with 2 SUVs, only because the price-point is same. Unfortunately, we do not have foreign SUVs at that price, to do a 1-to-1 comparo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee
If I were to talk about few mature Indian brands, obviously non auto, I would say V-Guard in stablilizers, Venus water heaters & this is all I can recall.
Right. Other examples could be the hosiery exported from Tirupur, quality leather-goods exported from here etc - though they end up selling under some other label. And I am sure there are more such Indian brands that hold their own against foreign brands, which was why I restricted myself to only auto-brands.
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Old 20th July 2010, 19:44   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
IMO, the fact that the product on which judgement is cast without evaluation being Indian is secondary. Primary reason would be the product not meeting certain requirements/benchmarks of the buyer. And this would apply even if the product were foreign. But I still do not see what inferiority complex has to do with choosing/chucking a product. Anyway, to each his own theory.

While I do not agree with your inf-complex theory, I dont think I called it absurd/illogical - not sure why you felt so.
You are entitled to your opinion, but whether it is representing the majority of the public is a different question.

I have neither shares in Indian companies nor any other company. I don't care whether what a brand name is made of, but I know as an automotive consultant, engineer and performance tuner what the public thinks.

In many countries including India is still a strong believe that Fiats rust and electric is crap. The elctrics is Bosch, TRW or Magnetti Marelli like in other cars. The panels are galvanized since 1991.

Mercedes is a reliable and safe car. Figures in the automotive industries show for years otherwise.

This is the public perception.

BTW Diana died in a Mercedes, but hitting a concrete pillar no one would have survived without a seat belt at the speed of impact. The body guard was wearing a seat belt and survived with minor injuries being the only one of the four wearing a belt.

In a head on collision it doesn't make a difference. This was an even head on collision between the BMW and the LFA. The TÜV makes head on collision test in conjunction with the largest automotive club in the world.

In Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France Toyota is not very much appreciated for many years because of the poor safety records.

Some of your arguments rather contradict themselves. I don't know what the agenda of poking holes in points that are based on factual observation, which is not only product of my own research, but shared by many of my collegues in the industry? Has it possibly to do with the fact that I am a foreigner?

Last edited by CPH : 20th July 2010 at 19:47.
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Old 20th July 2010, 19:46   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by supremeBaleno View Post
You have a point. But then again using your example, it is wrong to compare a van with 2 SUVs, only because the price-point is same. Unfortunately, we do not have foreign SUVs at that price, to do a 1-to-1 comparo.
why not? especially because the van (innova) is always compared to the SUVs (scorpio & safari) when it comes to ride quality & handling, inspite of knowing that the MUV would have less body roll & hence better handling than the SUVs & also, inspite of knowing that both MUVs & SUVs are built for cutomers of different needs! so now, when it comes to the other factors, why not compare the three?
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Old 20th July 2010, 20:22   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
You are entitled to your opinion, but whether it is representing the majority of the public is a different question.
I could say the same about you. And more so given that I have spent my life here, I am more aware of the Indian psyche than you could decipher over the internet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
In many countries including India is still a strong believe that Fiats rust and electric is crap. Mercedes is a reliable and safe car.
You could not be more wrong. The rust part is associated to Premier Padminis and not to Fiats. And for a common man, the Merc is just a luxury car, a snob-symbol. Nothing to do with safety. Probably the high asking price would make them think it is reliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
BTW Diana died in a Mercedes
I was wrong there. But again, it was just used as an example to say that surviving a crash in a car does not make it safest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
This was an even head on collision between the BMW and the LFA. The TÜV makes head on collision test in conjunction with the largest automotive club in the world.
I was not aware that crash tests were done with humans - have always thought its with dummies. But then you learn every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
In Germany, Austria, Switzerland and France Toyota is not very much appreciated for many years because of the poor safety records.
Maybe. But I already mentioned that its different in different countries and we are discussing India here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPH
Some of your arguments rather contradict themselves. I don't know what the agenda of poking holes in points that are based on factual observation, which is not only product of my own research, but shared by many of my collegues in the industry? Has it possibly to do with the fact that I am a foreigner?
I am not sure where you see a contradiction. Regarding your being a foreigner, that does not really matter to me - its a online forum, you have views, I have mine. Thats about it.
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Old 20th July 2010, 20:39   #56
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I don't see why the argument has shifted to whether Indian brands are cheap and downmarket. The thread was about perceptions. And the very existence of this thread (and the fact that we're done with four pages of posts) proves that the perception exists.

It has little to do with patriotism though. Its no different from the perception that Chinese products are cheap and not of very good quality. Whether it is true is another matter altogether
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Old 20th July 2010, 21:58   #57
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It is true that Indian's despise their own products often. This is sometimes ridiculous, but a common man always looks at the antecedents of a company before purchasing a product. Consider the Tata's. Today they make great cars, but rewind the clock back to the years 1999-2000 when the Indica was launched. Indian's were proud (and they still are) of the product. However, the car had a lot of initial problems. There were even instances of Oil leakages in new cars, the fan belt needed regular tightening. There were problems with the AC. In the DLX model, power windows stopped working often, and it was a disaster during the monsoon. Though they improved the cars drastically over the years, the Tata's actually used their initial customers to test the products. Some people still believe that the Tata's cannot be trusted with a new product.
I am a fan of the Vista and the Manza. But i still feel that the initiation of the products could have been better, and more customer oriented.
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Old 21st July 2010, 01:35   #58
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Originally Posted by CPH View Post

In many countries including India is still a strong believe that Fiats rust and electric is crap. The elctrics is Bosch, TRW or Magnetti Marelli like in other cars. The panels are galvanized since 1991.
Hi CPH,
I owned a Uno for 5 years / 75k Kms.

Fiats Rust : Yes they do, Maybe not the body panels but I had to change three silencers in the exhaust pipe over 75k kms because of rusting. The timing belt broke thrice and the camshaft bearings had to be changed twice. Compare that to my Baleno that is on the original exhaust since the past 66k Kms

Electrics is Crap : Three alternator failures over 75 k kms all because of the alternator bearing going kaput. In addition, horn and AC malfunction because of fuses blowing at random. No such issue in my baleno till now.. The AC Failed me at least once every quarter and Sanden was kind enough to give me a new compressor three year after I purchased the car. Unfortunately the problem was not with the compressor but the piping.

Talking that electrics is bosch, TRW or Marnetti is like saying every car is made of Steel and hence the same quality. The suppliers Quality has to be managed through carrot and stick methods of collaborative design, communication, governance, focus groups and incentives in case of better than expected quality. On the other hand we need to have adequate penalties in case of below par performance.

Poorly managed companies simply do not invest enough in supplier development programs and nor do they bother to collect enough customer feedback data that can help their suppliers improve the performance or at the minimum, apply the penalties per the contracts.

Finally, poor design and tolerance specifications mean that the same parts that do wonders in another car, do not work so well with one another in a different model.

From the looks of it, the current Fiat team is a class apart compared to what it was a decade ago in terms of quality and reliability.

Still, just thought it apt to mention that having the same set of suppliers does not mean same quailty.

Last edited by Buffetfan : 21st July 2010 at 01:37.
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Old 21st July 2010, 11:37   #59
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i think it has mostly to do with ignorance and a false perception that is difficult to change. Sadly what happens in india is people build their opinions on brands based on things they might have heard from others (who by the way might be sharing their experiences based on some third persons story)
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Old 22nd July 2010, 10:45   #60
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Mahindra & Tata's volume sellers do sell on price, as much as they do because of space, diesel efficiency and robustness. Also, the quality of most of their products is mostly average, with a sprinkling of good. As things stand today, neither Mahindra nor Tata can command a premium price for their cars....something that their marketing departments would be the first to admit. At the end of the day, it is the products that have built these perceptions. Perceptions that are not entirely unfounded.

However, I'd pick an Indian Manza over a India-Jap Dzire, and a Mahindra Thar over a Maruti Gypsy. Most Scorpios on this forum have proven far more reliable than my 30 lakh rupee German sedan. That is saying a lot, no?

Are Mahindra & Tata moving forward? You betcha! They have all the makings of world-class organisations. Tata has come a long way since the Estate / Sierra days, and has had a busy past decade (Nano, Manza etc.). Mahindra hasn't been twindling its thumbs either. The Scorpio, Xylo, new range of commercial trucks, acquisition of Maini Reva and more shows the highest degree of commitment. They are on the right track & only need to inject a wee bit more quality & refinement into their cars. Go for it, guys.
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